Here is a link to a Leonard Pitts column about religion and politics. It ran recently in "a local newspaper" but I liked it anyway.
Here is the link
Here are a couple paragraphs.
Organized religion, Christianity in particular, is on the decline, and it has no one to blame but itself: It traded moral authority for political power.
To put that another way: The Christian Bible contains numerous exhortations to serve those who are wretched and poor, to anger slowly and forgive promptly, to walk through this life in humility and faith. The word ``Republican'' does not appear in the book. Not once.
Yet somehow in the last 30 years, people of faith were hustled and hoodwinked into regarding the GOP platform as a lost gospel.
Excellent article.
ReplyDeleteOne of my seminary professors made it a point to say he was not a Christian, but a follower of the way of Christ. Perhaps we can all learn something from this.
The truth is out there.
ReplyDeleteBut it's not in the bible.
There are truths contained in the Bible, but not all of the Bible is true.
ReplyDelete"local newspaper"...that's a good one. Yeah, he loves everything Mr. Pitts writes. But, back on topic here, I guess we might add Democrat doesn't appear there either. i.e., some Dems believe they represent the party of Christians just as much. The 1st 3 posts out the blocks here prove why Christianity is on decline. But, no worries...the Muslims are having babies like popcorn. eh?
ReplyDeleteChristianity is on the decline because many people are waking up to the truth. The whole concept of an all powerful god is make believe nonsense.
ReplyDeleteIt's a simple fact that if all religion disappeared from the Earth it would make it a much better place to live. Think of all the people who have been killed in the name of one religion or another.
Morality being on the decline is also evident, and that worries me much more than christianity being on the decline.
Another fact... everyone reading this is an atheist.
Dont think so about everyone reading this is an atheist. Atheists on here have shown their hatred and intolerance of anyone who disagrees with them more than any other group.
ReplyDeleteTherefore i refuse to debate the merits of religion or the bible on here.
For now ill leave your posts up.
Those disgusting christians, feeding the poor, helping the sick, taking in people ... yea really disgusting...
I am a deeply devoted, 100% committed Christian, who happens to believe the "church," has done more to harm Christianity than any atheist ever could.
ReplyDeleteI think radical fundamentalists on both sides have also caused Christianity much harm.
It's simple really. Do Justice, Love Mercy, Walk Humbly. Love God, and Love Neighbor... All the rest is commentary.
It's simple really. Do Justice, Love Mercy, Walk Humbly. Love God, and Love Neighbor... All the rest is commentary.
ReplyDeleteMat:21 28-32
Jesus Tells the Parable of the Two Sons
What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, "Son go and work today in the vineyard."
'I will not he answered,' but later changed his mind and went.
Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will Sir,' but did not go.
"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"
"The first," they answered.
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him."
jj said:
ReplyDelete"Dont think so about everyone reading this is an atheist."
So JJ, do you believe in Ra the Egyptian Sun god? How about Zeus? Odin? Cinteotl? Thor? Apollo? Mohammed?
See, there are thousands of gods out there that people once believed in just as strongly as you believe in yours. Many times more strongly. (After all, when was the last time you threw a baby into a volcano for your god? Would you if he asked?) You are an Atheist when it comes to all gods but one. I just take it one step farther. To me your god is just as ridiculous as any in history. All were made up to explain the unknown.
Who is passing judgment here?
ReplyDeleteWho is attacking here?
I posted that with the thought of discussing the subject matter of the column, and because I liked it.
I am not debating atheists on here because they are so negative and only want to attack.
I am thinking about taking their hateful words down.
Bottom line. You will see some religious content here now and then.. and i am not debating the merits of it. if you dont like it, you dont have to read it.
lol. They drew you right into that one James. So instead of admitting that they were right, at least about everyone being an atheist in some sense, you threaten to take it down? I notice you didn't say you DON'T believe in the Gods they mentioned.
ReplyDeleteThats just playing with words. Atheists have beliefs, therefore, they are not true atheists.
ReplyDeleteI dont make any judgments about other gods ...
I dont make any judgments about other gods ...
ReplyDeleteNOW who's just playing with words? You know you don't believe in Odin or Thor, but you won't say it because that makes me right. And atheists can't be right about anything.
Atheists DONT believe in God. That is a belief about God. So thats not really atheistic thinking.
ReplyDeleteIf you truly did not believe, you wouln't be bothered to "not" believe. You should think about why you need to attack ...
I dont agree with vegetarians, i think its silly, but .. i dont see any need to attack them or even argue about it with them. Because i dont care... seems to me that someone who really didnt believe in God would have the same attitude towards those that do.
You do protest too much.
My statement that I do not make judgments about other gods is a theological statement, as well as a philosophical statement. Maybe you need to study a bit more.
God I hate atheists. They should all be lined up and shot. Then we could have our Christian Nation back the way it was intended. There are more of us Christians than there are of you atheists. We could just run them out or hunt them down.
ReplyDeleteNice Christian attitude you have there. you know, they did that once. It was called the crusades. Look it up.
ReplyDeleteIf you truly did not believe, you wouln't be bothered to "not" believe.
ReplyDeleteGood Point!
Because to deny God (good) you must also deny that there is Evil and that man has Choices!
You must accept that all things are random in nature and that there is no order or design!
No no responsibility, no purpose and no DESTINY!
Even the Heathen knows in his heart there is a God!
I have heard it said that there is no rational basis for morality other than God, and I think that is right.
ReplyDeleteYou may say its what is good for society, but ... who determines what is good?
its who is strongest that does. not who is most moral.
you cant even define morality.. because the ultimate question is what every 10 year old knows ... says who ???
you cant even define morality.. because the ultimate question is what every 10 year old knows ... says who ???
ReplyDeleteSays God:
And
The Ten Commandments is a good place to start for the basis of a definition of Morality!
Don't you think?
Why else would they work so hard to remove them from Society?
Ten you might want to look at the book of Acts in the Bible!
No?
I didn't think you would!
"Ten you might want to look at the book of Acts in the Bible!"
ReplyDeleteLike ACTS 5: 1-11 where god kills Ananias and Sapphira for not giving Peter all of the money that they made when selling their land. (They kept some for themselves.)
My personal favorite:
Under God's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins to deflower-- Wow! Good Bible!
How about Numbers 31:1-54
God tells the Israelites to make slaves out of their neighbors and their families. The "heathens" and "strangers" are to be their possessions forever. Leviticus 25:44-46
God killed all the Egyptian firstborn. Numbers 33:4 When all the first born were dead he then killed the first born cattle.
These are just a few examples of the attrocities committed by your loving and peaceful god you learned about in Sunday school.
And THIS is your basis for morality? No wonder our world is screwed up!
Acts 17: 22-31
ReplyDeletePaul then stood up in the meeting in Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him, though he is not far from each one of us. For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, WE are his offspring.
Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone - an image made by man's design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
"And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."
ReplyDeleteIf that is true, then why are there so many passages in the bible of god telling men how to sacrifice animals to him?
@4:44 -I hear ya. That's why I have said for some time now that an honest Christian can't take scripture literally. There is to much which contradicts itself, and too much violence which I believe is contrary to the nature of God, and the will of God for our lives. I believe that all scripture is useful for teaching, correction, reproof. And I do mean all scripture. Not just "Christian" scripture. I believe that all scripture, whether Christian or not is an attempt by humankind to understand the mind and will of God. Sometimes we have gotten it right, and others, we have been terribly wrong. Scripture need not be "true," or "historically accurate," in order to teach truths. Myth and metaphore function this way. God is reveled in the life and teaching of Jesus Christ. But, I do not believe Jesus had a monopoly on this. God is reveled in a multitude of ways, and yes a myriad of places. Perhaps even in Ra the Egyptian Sun god,Zeus, Odin, Cinteotl, Thor, Apollo, Mohammed...
ReplyDeleteI do not rule out that possibility...
From this point forward, I will delete attacks on christianity, history and the bible. Every time I post anything related to religion I get these same posts - i really believe you just copy and paste every time because its the same words.
ReplyDeleteYou are hijacking my posts.
Not gonna happen again.
So dont say you werent told ahead of time.
"I really believe you just copy and paste every time because its the same words."
ReplyDeleteOh you think so? Maybe I just have a better knowledge of the bible than you do. I did study it for many years. That's why I am an atheist. Delete my posts if you choose you coward. It is only because you cannot debate your belief in something that is so far fetched and ridiculous that if someone tried to explain it to you as an adult you would laugh in their face. But because you were indoctrinated from an early age you take it as fact. So if you can't prove it, just delete any arguments and keep your head buried in the sand. See if I care.
JJ, you're the one with the religious studies background. So just drop some proof on this dude and prove him wrong already.
ReplyDeleteIf that is true, then why are there so many passages in the bible of god telling men how to sacrifice animals to him?
ReplyDeleteWell if you studied the Bible? Why did you not know that Jesus was the last Blood Sacrifice required by GOD!
That from that day forward man could simply ask for forgiveness of his Sins?
But because you were indoctrinated from an early age you take it as fact.
No, Because he "lives" in the Hearts and Minds of those who will allow and accept HIM!
Im sure this is the same character as before because its all the same old arguments and hatred
ReplyDeleteI have given evidence on here .. its always dismissed as made up ..
i have offered to meet with him - or her - personally to discuss issues
what more than that can i do?
I could post a lot on the background of the bible. even atheist scholars admit it is very accurate as to ancient texts.
There are complete new testaments dating back to 350 a.d., and pieces of text dating back to 125 a.d.,
there are lists of books- where someone wrote down what books were "biblical" as early as 200 a.d. and that list is exactly what protestants use today.
The idea that the roman emporer and some church officials got together one weekend and made it up is too ridiculous.
no book has been examined more. the alleged contradictions are just that, words taken out of context. If there were really blatant errors and blatant contradictions, dont you think someone would have spotted them by now and fixed them...
You might find a number not adding up, or a name spelled differently or whatever, which i think does not matter at all .. but, seriously, unless you ave a phd in linguisitics,, as well as advanced degrees in greek, hebrew,aramic , latin and English ...
you really are not qualified to comment on the accuracy of the bible.
Lets see. thousands of scholars over thousands of years missed it, but one jerk who hates religious people and posts anonymously found them .... wow what a deal.
My bigger problem is that the thread is being hijacked.. we cant even talk about the original subject matter of the thread.
"even atheist scholars admit it is very accurate as to ancient texts."
ReplyDeleteLink?
Have you ever read or listened to Christopher Hitchens?
"no book has been examined more. the alleged contradictions are just that, words taken out of context. If there were really blatant errors and blatant contradictions, dont you think someone would have spotted them by now and fixed them..."
Fixed them? You can just FIX the bible? Isn't that what they attempted to do by leaving whole books out that were intended to be put in? Why are we not priviledged enough to read the WOLE bible, and not just the parts the editors thought we should? What are they hiding? Are there things in the left out works that are so impossible to believe that it would bring the entire bible into question? As if there isn't enough in the bible now to bring it into question?!
Here is a list of biblical contradictions. Very few are as you say. Many are undeniable.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
Example: Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?
MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."
LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."
Many things in the bible can be explained by a lack of knowledge. If it were truly the word of god, any god worth his salt would know these things.
MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
(Because they didn't understand the world was round)
ECC 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
(Because they didn't understand the hydrological cycle.)
LEV 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
LEV 11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
LEV 11:15 Every raven after his kind;
LEV 11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
LEV 11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
LEV 11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
LEV 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
DEU 14:11 Of all clean birds ye shall eat.
DEU 14:12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
DEU 14:13 And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,
DEU 14:14 And every raven after his kind,
DEU 14:15 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
DEU 14:16 The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan,
DEU 14:17 And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant,
DEU 14:18 And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
(because they didn't know that Bats were not birds. But a god who had created it would, wouldn't he/she/it?)
The bible is full of these. Anyone who has read it knows this.
And what is wrong with cutting and pasting scripture? Besides, you of all people should not condemn someone for cutting and pasting.
Fixed them? You can just FIX the bible? Isn't that what they attempted to do by leaving whole books out that were intended to be put in?
ReplyDelete>>>
duhhhhh you do leave out parts you dont intend to put in..... No books were ever left out. There were thousands of books.. some were chosen to be in the bible for many reasons...
>>>>>
Why are we not priviledged enough to read the WOLE bible, and not just the parts the editors thought we should? What are they hiding?
>>>
ALL, ALL, meaning every one, every ancient book that has existed, is easily available on the internet...
you may read them all, (THATa means EVERY ONE OF THEM) at your leisure ..
nothing has been hidding.
As i said, there were thousands of books. .. you cant include every book that was ever written .. there were criteria.. of course some would object, but this is just a silly argument.
>>>>>
Are there things in the left out works that are so impossible to believe that it would bring the entire bible into question? As if there isn't enough in the bible now to bring it into question?!
>>>
see above.. go read them and get back to me ...
>>>>
Example: Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?
MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain:
LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitu
>>>
This is typical of contradiction claims. These are two different books from two different authors. could it be that they were talking about different times>??
just plain common sense shoots this one down.
>>>>>
Many things in the bible can be explained by a lack of knowledge. If it were truly the word of god, any god worth his salt would know these things.
>>>>>>
yea, God knew about jet aircraft, can you imagine what people would have thought if moses had written about them?
People were limited to the knowledge of their time.
An 8th grade intro to logic student - who was failing - would see this as just plain poor logic.
There was no mention of killer whales either .. so it must not be true right????
>>>>>
MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
(Because they didn't understand the world was round)
>>>
This one is illogical to me on its face.. what about time, how could he see all the kingdoms over different times.. This "contradiction" is playing with words.
Like the bible says everyone went out to hear John the Baptist preach .. so if there was ONE person left in jerusalem thats a contradiction and the whole bible isnt true ...
pulleeeeeze
?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ECC 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
(Because they didn't understand the hydrological cycle.)
....
How does this contradict the hydrological cycle. seems to go along with it to me ...
>>>>>>
LEV 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; , and the bat.
(because they didn't know that Bats were not birds. But a god who had created it would, wouldn't he/she/it?)
>>>
again, people wrote the bible inspired by God. Its not a biology book. Most people today would also classify bats as birds if they didnt know...
Completely irrelevant.
>>>>
The bible is full of these. Anyone who has read it knows this.
>>>
Full eh
this the best you can do?
none of what you listed are even close to real problems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
None of your "contradictions" are even close. Whats wrong with just copying and pasting scripture is that you take it out of context.
ReplyDeleteHere is one for you
Judas went and hanged himself
Go ye therefore and do likewise
what you do , do quickly.
Those are three bible verses from the same book, almost the same chapter ... sooooooooo
The ones you listed are just plain silly.
where Jesus taught on the plain or on the mountain ... so it couldnt have been two different times? Different authors.. Not even close...You think jesus never gave similar sermons ? from different locations?
>>>>
The one about the devil taking jesus to the highest mountain ...
If you knew ancient history at all ...... the idea that the world was flat did not even get started until 1100 a.d. or so, people in jesus time, before and after, knew the world was round.. because of their limited knowledge of astronomy.
I always took that passage to be more of "spiritually" showing him all the kingdoms in a vision ... the mountain is just a metaphore. because it would include all kingdoms of all time, not just then...
>>>
About the bat...
again, writers were human, God did not dictate individual words. and people were limited to the knowledge of their time.
The classification of animals, birds, reptiles, etc., is a relatively modern invention .. has nothing to do with how they were classified then..
>>>
The Ecc. 1:7 thing .... and hydrological charts .. i dont get this one at all.. what he writes would fit what we understand today as the cycle of water and air.. thats really a stretch.
The bible is not full of contradictions. you have to twist things around to find even one.
There are a few textual problems here and there. like maybe 10, where the language isnt clear.. if you seriously wanted to discredit the bible you should look into those..
go get your phd in linguistics and get back to me.
"Here is one for you
ReplyDeleteJudas went and hanged himself
Go ye therefore and do likewise
what you do , do quickly."
Are you telling me to go hang myself? Not a very christian attitude in my opinion.
But since you brought up Judas, how about this?
How did Judas die exactly?
Did he hang himself?
"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)
Or fall to his death?
"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)
Hmmm. A contradiction about the very man you mentioned when arguing that there were no contradictions in the bible. How ironically contradictory!
BTW, When is the second coming?
MAT 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
MAR 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
LUK 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
What's it been 2000 YEARS??? Me thinketh it hath beeneth a generation or two, and yet none of these things have come to pass. I wonder why that is?
Ohhhhh its ok for you to play with words and take things out of context, but you dont like it when i do it ..at least i was honest about doing it.
ReplyDeletethe Judas thing. please. he fell when he hanged himself ... how is that a contradiction.
The verses you quoted about the kingdom of god returning..
THIS GENERATION is the key there. he was speaking to people there and saying THEIR generation would not pass . that was about 30 a.d. ... 70 a.d., the romans sacked and destroyed jerusalem . So that generation did not pass until those things were fulfilled... so not only is that NOT a contradiction, it is a prophecy fulfilled...
JJ, I think your argument would be better served if you were to admit that there are some things which many might consider top be contradictory. Rather than try to explain these things away, why not admit that it is these very things that cause us to wrestle with the story, and make it our own. We are called to live within the tension of these seeming "contradictions," which make our faith living and active. It is these "contradictions which I believe ultimately give our faith credence, for if someone was trying to manufacturer religious movement, and fabricate scripture, they would have done a better job making sure everything lined up, and fit perfectly...
ReplyDeleteWe are called to live within the tension of these seeming "contradictions," which make our faith living and active. It is these "contradictions which I believe ultimately give our faith credence, f
ReplyDelete>>>
Actually I agree with that.
The problem is, the alleged contradictions posted so far are not contradictions at all. They are just taking things out of context.
How is showing the person their error wrong?
The idea that the bible is "Filled" with errors and contradictions is a lie plain and simple. just not true at all, so why should i let it go when people tell lies like that.
There are some areas where it seems to say one thing in one place and something different in another, and that is where the tension is, but no one has posted any of those .... There are some places where a number isnt exactly right or something .. but they havent posted any of those...
I just hate for anyone to believe the lies being posted here. I dont think i am explaining things away... im just explaining things to people.
If you were driving north to winfield and said you were going to newkirk because its up by derby, would i be wrong to suggest that newkirk might be south of here because thats what the map says? That is how i feel about whats going on here ...
Just admit that the bible contradicts itself. Genesis 1 and 2 disagree about the order in which things are created, and how satisfied God is about the results of his labors.
ReplyDeleteDecide for yourself:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/merrit01.html
ReplyDeleteThat is a link with refutation to every one of them.
Now, i am not being mean to you, or even a smart aleck.
Here, noble sir, are your answers...
The deal is. there are a couple questionable things in the bible that scholars would agree on .. they are few and do not affect any key teaching ..
but NONE of those are listed in his diatribe.
Im just saying, there must be some intellectual honesty here ...
so read both and decide ... but no matter what you decide you are still not addressing the core issue.
Actually JJ, I think positing the creation stories in Gen. 1 vs. Gen. 2 is a valid citation of contradictions contained in the Bible. Both cannot be true. How do you reconcile that? I'm honestly interested in your response.
ReplyDeleteYou may have a point however. Whenever arguing with fools, I like to take the wisdom of proverbs to heart. Perhaps you might find some sound advice in the words of Prov. 26:4 and 26:5. ;)
ReplyDeleteWell you need to have some understanding of how it was written. How people wrote then and that sort of thing.
ReplyDeleteIn ancient hebrew writing - as well as sumerian and mesopotamian circa 2100 b..c. and earlier - the common practice was to tell a story in general, and then to tell it again in detail, or the other way around.
The Gen 1 tells it in one way, in a general way, while gen. 2 is a more detailed way with different points. Very common in ancient literature.
What is the contradiction here ?
I have never said there are NONE .. i have only said the ones that are posted are not .. and have explained why not. and somehow that makes me the bad guy ... whatever.
but, what is the contradiction in gen 1 and gen 2..
my goodness, this is material that is thousands of years old ..was handed dowon thousands of years before Moses even got his hands on it to put together Genesis, and that was thousands of years ago..
. that they are even remotely alike is amazing to me ... so .
Here's the deal for me. I consider myself a devout, committed Christian. I do see contradictions in scripture that have been hard for me to reconcile, both in form and content.
ReplyDeleteIf we take scripture at face value, and believe it is infallible, and inerrant. If we take it as literal truth, then we must conclude that God is at worst evil and sadistic, and at best schizophrenic. If God is God, and God wanted to have God's laws written down and codified, don't you think God could have done a better job? Don't you think God could have made it more obvvious, easier to understand? I believe God writes God's law on our hearts. It is us who needs it written down and codified. And so we attempt to speak for God. To write down what God would have us believe; would have us think and do and say. Sometimes we are write, sometimes we use "God" to justify some pretty atrocious behavior. I believe God is Love. My heart testifies to this. I do not believe a loving God could ever command genocide, yet scripture is full of this behavior. We have at times in our history used scripture to justify slavery and discrimination, child abuse, or the subjugation of women, yet I am quite certain God never condoned these behaviors either.
Much of what we believe is as a result of the Council of Nicea. Constantine, (a new convert wished to use Christ as his standard to be carried into battle. (I do not believe this is what God had intended for Christ.) Constantine had the bigger army, and thus his beliefs prevailed. The Bible was chosen ion much the same way, first codified by Athanasius in 367 AD. Athanasius had a particular bias, and an agenda to push, and thus, chose books that backed that up. As for our earliest creation, fall, redemption stories; on cannot escape the fact that these stories closely mirror ancient near east stories like Enuma Elish, Gilgamesh, Mithras... There are countless more, but you get the point.
As for John 3:16 being the central point of Scripture, I think Jesus would disagree. Christ himself, (if you believe scripture,) said the greatest of all the commands was to love God, and to Love your neighbor.
TO me, other stories that are similar by other cultures, just support the bible. Gilgamesh, whatever. A lot of ancient cultures have the same stories ... so there must be a common denominator there ?
ReplyDeleteyou cant prove who had what first when your talking 5,000 years ago or longer..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
About putting the bible together
You are presenting a rather modern Gnostic interpretation of history.
..........
The Bible was chosen ion much the same way, first codified by Athanasius in 367 AD. Athanasius had a particular bias, and an agenda to push, and thus, chose books that backed that up
>>>>
Athanasius was just a plain old priest with no special power ... he made up a list, thats all he did, it had no particular power or influence.. he was not instrumental at all.
The new testament we have now was pretty well in use by 200 a.d., with just some disagreement over some books. What was codified was what had survived the test of time and was in use by the churches.
Look at the chart below
Just saying that the idea that one person, or the romans, got together one weekend and came up with the NT is ... ummmmm not very reasonable?
Ive studied NT history a lot.
here is a list of events that are provable with written evidence.
150 A.D. Marcion.
Rejected entire Old Testament. Of the four gospels accepted only a copy of Mark that he had edited, and only about half of Paul’s writings.
200 A.D. Muratorium
His list includes Revelation and Peter, but notes public non-acceptance of Revalation and II Peter. Rejects Paul’s letter to the Laodaceans and to the Alexandrians. He also rejected Paul’s letter to the Hebrews, the Sheperd of Hermas, but said it was ok for private reading and teaching.
Eusebius 260-340 A.D.
Influenced by Clement and Origin. Origin had studied inder Polycarp who had studied under John the apostle.
Three categories: Accepted, Disputed and Heretical.
Accepted: The Gospels, 13 Letters of Paul, Hebrews (noting that Rome held it was not by Paul), I Peter and I John, and with reservations, Revelation.
Disputed: James, Jude, II Peter, II and III John, but notes they are widely accepted. Also disputed and general not accepted are Acts of Paul, Shephrd of Hermans, Apocalyps of Peter, Epistle of Barnabus and the Didache and Revelation.
Heretical: Gospel of Thomas, Acts of Andrew and Acts of John
Easter Letter by Athanasius in 367
The first list that includes all 27 books and no others.
Yes James, perhaps I oversimplified the process by which the Bible came to be, but I don't think it can be argued that the people in power, and who had a particular bias, got to choose what would be accepted, and what would not. It was a patriarchal, somewhat misogynist society, and that shaped our current cannon. Certainly, it was more of a human affair than anything divine. One of the criterion used for inclusion was apostolic authorship, and antiquity. So, if something was old, and could be attributed to an apostle, it was included. Problem is, much of modern scholarship has now revealed that authorship of many books included is in doubt, or has been outright refuted, and many books thought to have been written early, are now thought to have been written much later than first thought. So, it still seems quite arbitrary, and perhaps much useful teaching can be found in what was excluded.
ReplyDeleteAs to a common denominator with regard to ancient creation myth. You're probably right. I was merely trying to point out that our belief that we Judeo-Christians have an exclusive corner on the truth may be a bit narrow minded.
It is possible to have a rational discussion. :)
ReplyDeletemuch of modern scholarship has now revealed that authorship of many books included is in doubt, or has been outright refuted, a
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Here is the thing, this is thrown out as truth, and it is anything but truth.
Textual criticism - the science of figuring out how many people wrote something - is junk science to many people, and many scholars.
You could take any of my posts and find 2-3 differeing "authors" .. and what if Paul did borrow a few sentences ... so ???
and this "scholarship" has been done with English, not the original languages ...
Ive translated the Greek of John myself (took a year) i dont care what anyone says, the style in the greek does not change at all
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A lot of what you hear out there is simply not true.
Saying they are an expert doesnt make it so /
Those that accuse Christianity of being made up over the weekend (exaggerating intentionally) are doing the same thing now... creating bogus history
There is a lot of misinformation out there.
Why must it have been a roman conspiracy for christianity to start ? Is there any actual evidence?
Could it be that it grew because people believed in it and they saw the power of the holy spirit in their lives.?
Theres more to the picture :)
JJ, you may disagree with the scholarship, but it is out there, and much of it, heck most of it has been done in the original languages. Yes, it is always difficult to study ancient text, and any hypothesis posited, or conclusions drawn are mere speculation, on either side. I do not believe iChristianity was a "Roman Invention, or a fabrication. I believe it flourished after Constantine with the protection of the state, but I also believe it's very nature, and purpose was corrupted by Rome until, in many ways it was the antithesis of what Christ came to teach and preach.
ReplyDeleteI believe it flourished after Constantine with the protection of the state, but I also believe it's very nature, and purpose was corrupted by Rome until, in many ways it was the antithesis of what Christ came to teach and preach.
ReplyDelete>>>
I am familiar with that idea. I would say it flourished before Constantine - and there's plenty of evidence for that - and that constantine coopted what was already there. Christianity had spread throughout the empire before constantine was born ..
I dont think the original message of Christ as been lost at all.. what is happening is opponents are trying to change history to push their version of history on us.
The idea of rome proping up the church is a gnostic invention .. the gnostics lost out because their ideas were not as well thought out as mainstream christianity and they had no spiritual power ... so they have to invent this conspiracy thing to hide that ...
Its enemies of the message that are trying to corrupt truth and attack the foundations of it today. Which is why i argue the point.
There is no evidence that the message changed at all before constantine or after. Copies of the Gospel of John from 150 s.d. are the same as they are today.
. the scriptures didnt change. nothing changed.. The gospel preached today in churches is the same gospel Christ preached and the same gospel paul preached ... theres proof of that ..
The constantine material is revisionist history i say :)
Chrstianity was well established all the way to England by the time he came along. and how do you know he didnt really get converted?
There is power in Jesus. Thats the thing. Paul wrote about ... the power of the holy spirit.
The kingdom of God is not in words but in power of the Holy Spirit.
Im just speaking up for truth... wanna send me a private email someday ?
This thread never did get to talk about what i wanted to talk about, which was an interesting subject.
ReplyDeletebummer
JJ, we'll have to agree to disagree. I to have studied NT history quite extensively, and am in the process of learning both Greek and Hebrew so that I can read the original texts for myself. I also have looked at the evidence, and have come to a different conclusion. I do not believe that make me any less a Christian, nor do I see myself as an "enemy of the message," or as someone trying to "corrupt truth" or "attack the foundations" of it Christianity. I love the Church. I strive to know truth. Thanks for the dialog. I do agree that what is most important is the power of Christ, and the Holy Spirit to bring about new life and resurrection. I have seen its power, and effect too many times not to believe it. Perhaps we can agree that the "word," is not the Word, but merely an arrow pointing to the true WORD.
ReplyDeleteSo back to the article. I do believe the church "has traded moral authority for political power."
ReplyDeleteIndeed, "The Christian Bible contains numerous exhortations to serve those who are wretched and poor, to anger slowly and forgive promptly, to walk through this life in humility and faith," but we have come to believe it is all about swearing allegiance to Christ. "Believing in our hearts, and confessing with our mouths." We believe it is all about securing our place in heaven, or prospering in the here and now. We believe we are blessed because we are good. We are blessed because we have earned it. God has shown us favor because of our righteousness... We believe that is why America has prospered, and equate being American with being Christian. Certainly with being conservative and Republican. All the while we have abdicated our responsibility to care for the least of these. We almost blame them for their plight, and equate their low status with being ungodly, or somehow out of God's favor. We prosper cause God blesses us. They suffer, cause God must be displeased with them.
Excellent point 9:39
ReplyDeleteAppreciate the dialogue 9:30
I was not meaning to say that "YOU" were perverting the message or the history of the message. I was just saying that about the version of history that you were mentioning. There are 2-3 different versions. We have talked about 2 of them. It is amazing that very few - if any - mix and match parts of the version :)
Then if you go into Greek Orthodox circles, you get a whole different take on everything ..
Enjoyed the dialogue.
The gnostics were an interesting bunch. Id recommend a book .. Gnostics, by Elaine Pagels. She is a historian - anthropologist, who is actually readable. Does a good job of talking about the early church struggle without taking sides too terribly much. :)
Its the best and most objective thing ive read on the era. Had the gnostics won out, the version of history you are talking about would be "orthodox" .. there were two schools of christianity early on .. i just think the one that won was the one God intended to win.
One suggestion. Do not try to learn greek or hebrew on your own. You really need a classroom setting - even online - with an instructor. Theres a lot more to it than just learning words. There are tools out there .. books that let you do amazing things.
As ive said, i dont judge other religions. Or other people's religions. Though ill argue history enthusiastically. :)
I do think some people are trying to rewrite history though ... again not meaning you personally.
send me an email and let me know who you are ..
j
It all goes back to my professor's statement that he is a follower of Jesus rather than a Christian.
ReplyDeleteToo many of us believe it is about saying the right prayer, believing the right creed. We have turned Christianity into idolatry of Christ, which I believe is exactly what Jesus does not want us to do. I can imagine Jesus saying, "You still don't get it. I do not desire your worship. I do not desire your vain and empty hallelujahs, or your "Thank you Jesus's..." "That is not why I came." (Had it been, it all would seem a bit self centered and narcissistic, don't you think?) Rather, I believe, Jesus would say, "Do you really love God? Follow me." "Do you really love God? Love your neighbor?" "Do you really love God? Feed my sheep?" Turn the other check, give your coat to someone who is cold, love the unlovable..." "Voluntarily divest yourself of any power and privileged you have." "Sell all you have, give it to the poor and stand with me. Stand with them." But these things are much more difficult. So, rather than "follow the way, we call ourselves Christian; say the "sinners prayer," give our hearts to Jesus and call it a day. Trouble is, there's no real obligation or commitment to change...
It really all goes back to my professor's statement that he is a follower of the Way of Jesus rather than a Christian.
ReplyDeleteI think to many of us believe it is about saying the right prayer, or believing the right creed. We have turned Christianity into idolatry of Christ; which I believe is exactly what Jesus does not want us to do. I can imagine Jesus saying, "You still don't get it do you?. I do not desire your worship. I do not desire your vain and empty hallelujahs, or your "Thank you Jesus's..., that is not why I came." (Had it been, it all would seem a bit self centered and narcissistic, don't you think?) Rather, I believe, Jesus would say "Do you really love God? Follow me." "Do you really love God? Love your neighbor." "Do you really love God? Feed my sheep." "Turn the other check, give your coat to someone who is cold, love the unlovable..." "Voluntarily divest yourself of any power and privileged you have." "Sell all you have, give it to the poor and stand with me. Stand with them." But these things are so much more difficult than empty words, and half hearted commitments. So, rather than "follow the way, we call ourselves "Christian." We say the "sinners prayer," give our hearts to Jesus and call it a day. Trouble is, there's no real obligation or commitment to change... It is discipleship without cost. It requires no death to self, no sacrifice; and without death, there can be no ressurection...
Sorry for the double post. I didn't see the first when I looked, and had this saved from when I typed it first. I cleaned up some of the typo's...
ReplyDeleteVery powerful.
ReplyDeleteThis should make all of us who claim the name of Christ to reexamine just what it means to be a follower of Jesus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EieFdXy_HwM