This is pretty much a post I put on another thread. Im just thinking about things and considering what to do.
It just seems like every time I mention anything remotely related to religion, we get the long posts about how the bible is full of mistakes, about God killing people and how stupid Christians are and how they don't think at all .. yada yada yada...
On one hand, its fine for them to do that. but on the other, it does hijack the thread and we cant talk about what we were talking about ... Say you're talking about Ford transmissions, and you get spammed with why Fords are terrible cars and probably don't really exist .. what point does that serve?
The other problem i have is that it is always the same arguments, word for word. Ive just seen em so much i got it memorized. I fully expect to see the list of 100 contradictions posted any time now ... all out of context stuff..And who is to say that the poster didn't just accept what he was told without thinking? How intellectually honest is he or she being? Easy to make wide sweeping accusations...
Anyways. here are some basic points to consider
The problem is not one of accuracy of the bible ... It really does not matter, that is not the objection. The real objection is that there is a God and everyone will face judgment ...
The only bible verse that has to be accurate is John 3:16 ... the rest is commentary.
Some people do not want to be held accountable for their actions or want to be judged, so their answer is to attack the credibility of the judge. Or the book the judge wrote. First thing people do when they get in jail is to talk about how the law really does not apply to them. The motion to dismiss charges is almost automatic at the beginning of any trial.
So dismissing the bible is automatic for any atheist. Thing is, its been under attack for a long time ... not been discredited yet by anyone who is intellectually honest at all. I still think they protest too much. If they really thought it was just made up.. they wouldnt bother with attacking it.
Here is a secret ... my faith is not in the bible, it is in God, who inspired the bible.. I know the author, his book is pretty cool, but the author is what matters...If i lost his book and never found it again, it would be a hassle, but ...not that big of a hassle.
Also the argument that Christians don't think, just believe what they are told, is offensive ...
Maybe the atheist does that? Its just a stupid insult, so why should I allow it?
Honestly, the most studious people I know are Christians.
Lets see ... Thousands of scholars over thousands of years have had history all wrong, but some guy who hates religious people and posts anonymously has by golly got it all figured out...
Here are some facts from history. If you want i can direct you to the original sources
There are complete new testaments dating back to 250 a.d., and pieces of text dating back to 125 a.d., A complete gospel of john from 125 a.d., and does not say anything different than what it says today...
there are lists of books- where someone wrote down what books were "biblical" as early as 200 a.d. and that list is exactly what protestants use today. There are copies of the Old TEstament from well before when the NT was written.
Another interesting fact ... in the book of Romans, Paul is sending greetings to various people .. and he mentions one, who he says is the director of public works .. so some archaeologist found an inscription on a building in Rome with that person's name on it identifying himself as the director of public works .. there is no date but the building was before 100 a.d. .
The idea that the roman emporer and some church officials got together one weekend and made it up is too ridiculous.
You might find a number not adding up, or a name spelled differently or whatever, which i think does not matter at all .. but it is a translation. To figure out whether it really is or not you have to look at original languages.... seriously, unless you ave a phd in linguisitics,, as well as advanced degrees in greek, hebrew,aramic , latin and English ... Not to mention Archaeology History and anthropology.
you really are not qualified to comment on the accuracy of the bible.
Note to atheists ... if you want to put up the 100 contradictions, or any list that is long, just put in the link. I will allow the link, but will delete long lists and posts..
The very core of the bible is, most certainly, the verse John3;16, but you very well may be steppiing out on a limb when you refer to the 'rest of the bible as commentarty'. You may well be held responsible at your judgement for belittling the importance ofthe bible as the Holy Scriptures, for it says that you cannot take from, nor add to, 'one tittle' of the Word
ReplyDeleteYou ever heard of a metaphore ? :)
ReplyDeleteWho is to say which religion is the right one? I think the details are pretty important.
ReplyDeleteyou could make an honest study into all of them ...
ReplyDeleteor you could see which one has power..
somewhere it is written
the kingdom of God is not in clever words but in power with the Holy Spirit...
i agree details are important
there are important details and unimportant details.
do you really care whether it was a cherry tree or an apple tree that george washington cut down .; if it turns out it was a pear tree, does that mean it never happened?
i agree details matter
but ... some objections are just ridiculous.
now, you will say, who is to say what is ridiculous .. well, i can say for myself what is ridiculous.. whether you agree or not doesn't matter..
The objections posted earlier in this thread, to the bible, were bogus objections. they are all playing with words and taking stuff out of context.
There is basic human logic that should guide our thoughts...
Logic and the bible do not mix well.
ReplyDeleteI will tell you why details matter, and why condradictions are telling. Because this is supposed to be the WORD OF GOD!!! You would not expect an all knowing all powerful god to make mistakes. If you can't rely on it to be 100% accurate in every word and every sentence, then how can you follow it?
AND.. Who decided that we only get to read part of the scriptures? If this was the word of god, why edit it to fit in one book? Why not make an entire set likethe encyclopedia britannica?
I believe that the scriptures and writings that make up the bible were man's attempt to explain the universe and the workings of the world. Had it truly been the word of a god that had created it, there would be no inaccuracies of any kind. It offers many good lessons and many outdated facts which are easily disproven by modern science and wisdom. And, like the testimony of a witness in a courtroom, if part of what they are saying is a lie, you can not believe anything else they say.
Logic and the bible go hand in hand, which is probably why you are having such trouble.
ReplyDeleteI agree details matter. none, not any, not a single one, of the "contradictions" you listed were even close to being contradictions. They are all the result of you playing with words and taking things out of context.
The idea that the bible is "full" of contradictions is just a blatant lie ...
A plain reading of what the bible says debunks all your alleged contradictions.
But, I do not think it is reasonable to think the bible must be absolutely perfect. ((even though its pretty close)) If that were true, you would not be able to write one verse incorrectly.
To require God to make every word perfect is just ridiculous... but, God did do a pretty good job ..
as ive said, the real problems with the bible can be written on a half a sheet of paper.
The preservation of the ancient texts is nothing short of miraculous and your assertions otherwise are lies ..
as for your encyclopedia nonsense ...the bible contains 66 books .. just like an encyclopedia would .. what do you mean by made to fit .. where is your evidence for that, if you can even figure out what you are trying to say there. ..
You think the bible was made up, fine, thats up to you.. but why do you ridicule those that dont agree with you. you have no proof for that assertioen, ..
nothing in the bible has been disproven ... if it were made up, there should be some evidence .. like vastly different versions of ancient texts .. they just dont exist...
you are spouting a bunch of lies and if you would just look at what you are saying, you would see that.
>>
You wrote ;;;;
like the testimony of a witness in a courtroom, if part of what they are saying
,,
this is where you are just wrong. if a witness in a courtroom has a detail wrong, and that is proven, the jury is directed to disregard that detail but not the testimony of the witness.
thats just silly.
consider why you hate christians and the bible so much... why do you hate so much, i dare you to take a week and think on your hatred and where it comes from
"as for your encyclopedia nonsense ...the bible contains 66 books .. just like an encyclopedia would .. what do you mean by made to fit .. where is your evidence for that, if you can even figure out what you are trying to say there. .."
ReplyDeleteOh, I can figure out what I'm trying to say. I'm sure anyone who reads this can too. What I'm trying to say is WHY CUT ANYTHING OUT??? It isn't a movie that needs edited to stay under a two hour runtime, it's the WORD OF GOD!!! Why not have all the scriptures in one set of books instead of editing it down to one book and leaving things on the cutting room floor? How hard is that to understand?
"you are spouting a bunch of lies and if you would just look at what you are saying, you would see that."
Prove one lie I have said. I have spoken nothing but the rational truth. Just because it conflicts with your beliefs in the supernatural does not make it lies.
I try to debate civilly and all you do is attack me. I guess that's what christians do when their faith is questioned.
"this is where you are just wrong. if a witness in a courtroom has a detail wrong, and that is proven, the jury is directed to disregard that detail but not the testimony of the witness."
No, it is you who are wrong. It's called witness impeachment due to inconsistent statements. AND besides, I said "if part of what they are saying is a lie, you can not believe anything else they say." but you changed it to: "if a witness in a courtroom has a detail wrong.." That is not what I said. You cannot twist the words I use when they are still right up there for all to see.
You spout zero or very few "facts" and yet call mine silly, yet you have shown yourself less than knowledgeable in many areas of that which you hold so dear. Where are your real facts to prove your side or disprove anything that I have said? You say I lie, yet I do not accuse you of lying, only of being misled. You are malicious in your debate, going so far as to tell me to hang myself, yet you portray yourself as a man of god, whom people should look to as an example. You have shown questionable moral judgement, yet berate me for not believing in your god. You say your god is the basis for all morality, yet I have no god, but maintain a high moral integrity. You sir are a contradiction. I feel sorry for you. And now that I see you cannot debate civilly, I will leave you to think about the things you have said and the way you have portrayed the christian society as a whole.
Now say six hundred and sixty six hail mary's and throw some salt over your left shoulder, put your right foot in, and your right foot out, and then all will be forgiven.
Oh, I can figure out what I'm trying to say. I'm sure anyone who reads this can too. What I'm trying to say is WHY CUT ANYTHING OUT???
ReplyDelete>>
Nothing has been cut out.
It would depend on what the fact was the witness was wrong about .. if a witness said he saw the bank robber fleeing at 12:00 but it was really 12:02, i doubt that would matter ...
you are just attacking .. you dont have any facts at all....
Nothing has been cut out???
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thelostbooks.com/list.htm
And yes, they are available today on the internet, but before 10 years ago, the average person had no access to any of these works.
How can you just lie like that?
Calling them lost is a good sales ploy. They were never lost. Scholars knew about them all along and they were available in libraries.
ReplyDeleteYou know, 100 years ago, the average person could not read.
and 200 years go the average person never saw a bible ...
thats the truth.
I am a Christian man, and I believe in God Almighty, but James, you are not doing a good job arguing our side. You have offered nothing in return for all the points that poster made. You haven't linked to one thing. Show him or her some proof already! You are educated on the subject but all you are doing is denying everything they said without backing anything up. That proves nothing.
ReplyDeleteYou have offered nothing in return for all the points that poster made.
ReplyDelete>
I refuted ever single one of them with facts.
And simple logic.
Example
He says Jesus did one thing once, and something else another time .. and said that was a contradiction.
I pointed out it was two different events, and not a contradiction.
The proof is that his allegations are based on false assumptions ..
How is that mean? How is that not showing the truth?
Also, i pointed out that there has been nothing taken out of the bible. That was his allegation, he should offer proof.
ReplyDeleteThe list of "lost" books is a list of books that are not in the bible. So, what does that prove. They were never in there to start with and they have never been lost.
So again, how is that being mean, and how is that not offering proof.
He should be able to show examples of ancient bibles that have books that we no longer have ....
Everyone knows there were books left out of the bible.
ReplyDeleteProve the existence of one
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean by left out? Thats so nebulous. The u.s. constitution was not included, so i guess that was left out?
seriously. what does that mean.
If you are interested, there has been volumes written on how books were chosen, when they were chosen, what criteria was used. You can even read the debates that took place in the first century...
Its very plain and simple history if you care to look.
The idea that there are secret books out there that are being hidden is wrong.
I am not being mean here .. i just saying that if you want to make accusations like that, do not be surprised when someone says ... Prove it ...
is that too much to ask ?
Define what you mean by left out and show evidence of their existance ...
There were more books of the bible that did not make the cut. Whomever was in charge of putiing it together decided that not all books would be included. This is common knowledge. Why dispute it?
ReplyDeleteWell obviously if you pull together certain books, that means certain ones were not chosen. In that sense, they were left out, but .. There was never a time that there was an accepted bible and books taken out of that. That is what I meant .. the poster said things were "Taken Out" and that is what i was disputing..
ReplyDeleteOk, certain ancient books were not included ... so ..what does that mean?
that isnt a conspiracy.
It was not one person who "chose"
It is actually a very interesting history behind how the books were chosen. Ive studied this in great detail, its not some mysterious conspiracy.
The early church essentially agreed on what was scripture and what was not .. there were good books not chosen, but there were criteria.
I never said otherwise ..
The books were in use 200 years at least before the church made its official list - the cannon.
There are good reasons for each of the ones in there ..
The history of the bible is much more interesting than you might imagine
What is more interesting is the history of attricities commited in the name of god. Millions of people hae died because of religious beliefs.
ReplyDeleteyou are not the one to be giving out religious instructions as you are nothing more than a prosalyte born from the lords of the local tabernacle at city hall. WHAT A BUNCH OF PHARISEES !! Perhaps it is time for some of God's workers to send some of them to the meeting with Christ, face to face, and let them be judged for their hypocrisy !!
ReplyDeleteTrue enough. Governments are good at co-opting religion and using it.
ReplyDeleteBut you also have to realize that you cant judge history by todays standards. Need to try to understand it in its context. People have always done bad things to people, and still are.
Just recently a group of Christians were killed in India for feeding poor children and giving them glasses...
Just because something is done in the name of God, does not mean God is involved in it...
Some people use the fact that people have killed in the name of god as a slam against religion, but it is religion that tries to make sense of things and true religion that tries to stop wars.
http://wesley.nnu.edu/index.htm
ReplyDelete7:34,
ReplyDeleteWgat's your point? You want me to spend $59 on a CD that cost $1 to make?
http://wesley.nnu.edu/
ReplyDelete