I just saw on brand-x website, that city attorney is concerned that the city "might" be sued over its practice of having a prayer before meetings, done by area ministers.
I just wonder if it is a good use of taxpayer money to pay the city attorney to prepare briefs on issues where the city "might" be sued. Someone could stumble on the front steps of city hall too, and sue the city. Anyone can sue anyone over anything. It just costs a couple bucks to file the paper work for a lawsuit.
I suppose this is a topic to be debated, but i think another issue here is whether the city should be paying its attorney to find areas where the city "might" be sued. This has been a long-standing practice, and many city commissions do this. There are constitutional ways of going about it. It will be interesting to see if this becomes a hot button issue in ark city.
There is a constitutional way to violate the separation of church and state? Interesting. Please enlighten us.
ReplyDeleteSeparation of church and state does not mean there can never be any mention of religion, or even public expression of religion.
ReplyDeleteits that freedom of speech thing.
:)
But separation of church and state does say that the State can not push any religion, which is what is happening when a governing body leads a prayer. It is a violation, the same as when a school leads children in prayer. Do they say a Muslim prayer? A jewish prayer? If not, then they descriminate against anyone who is not a christian.
ReplyDeleteThey dont lead a prayer. the govt body in this case is not leading a prayer.
ReplyDeleteno one is asked - or encouraged - to participate.
they are not pushing a religion.
the congress of the united states is opened with a prayer ... i really doubt you are going to convince many people that is a violation.
no ac is not violating church and state by any stretch.
Yes they are! And sooner or later, they are going to get in trouble for it. Tamara is correct in addressing the issue before it comes to that.
ReplyDeletehttp://blogs.kansas.com/gov/2010/07/20/council-members-debate-seperation-of-church-and-state/
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sep_c_st4.htm
http://www.acluva.org/docket/turner.html
ReplyDeleteSo a generic prayer to a generic god seems to pass the limits the Supreme Court has put on Separation of Church and State, but the second they utter the name Jesus, or whatever god they worship, it becomes illegal.
I may have just found a reason to watch the broadcats of the city council meetings. Maybe I'll make a drinking game out of it.
"Jesus" = down a shot.
Everyone knows that they are praying to their chiristian god, and anyone with beliefs of any other kind, or none at all, are being descriminated against. I'm sure if I got up and began a prayer to the Wiccan Mother or Mohammed, or Buddha, or Satan, I would be arrested for inciting a riot. You poor downtrodden christians are so mistreated, even though you make up 90% of the population, and always try to force your beliefs on others.
sounds like you are the one trying to force your beliefs on others. if 90 percent are christian, why should 90 percent the population lose their rights just so you can force your views on them...
ReplyDeletejust read your post ... its funny for you to talk about intolerance when you are the most intolerant person around here...
ok, try this.
there is a wiccan priestess in wichita. she comes to ark city at times.
have some local wiccans (there are a couple in ac) and call up the commission and ask to be put on the schedule,.
i dare you
but you cant just show up at a meeting and start spouting off - prayer or otherwise...
yes, if were to disrupt a meeting you could be arrested, the topic doesnt matter.
its called disturbing the peace, which is a misdemanor ...
Everyone knows that they are praying to their chiristian god, and anyone with beliefs of any other kind, or none at all, are being descriminated against.
ReplyDeleteSo are you saying that all references to the Chrisitian God on which our Nation was founded should be removed? From the money, from the Public Buildings in Washington D.C. and even the states and some counties/cities?
I think they were here long before you and some others came along and they are a part of the American Culture and History! So are the traditions that have been handed down from one generation to the next! (Public and Private).
What would you suggest we replace all those references to God with?????
Btw: Most of the laws that govern our society were based on the 10 commandments albeit there is a push to remove any mention of them in Government!
ReplyDeleteBut the real goal of replacing God is probably more about elevating MAN to replace God!
Next subject for discussion:
God is standing in the way of MANS justification of things like same sex marrige, abortion, ........!
Here is a link to and article on CNN today!
ReplyDeletehttp://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/15/my-take-how-technology-could-bring-down-the-church/
It is an interesting article about the authors view of technology and how it might relate to the traditional church!
Within that article is a reference to Youversion an online bible available in 113 versions and 41 languages. It was developed by a middle aged man in Oklahoma.
Its been installed on more than 20 million smartphones since 2008!
Do you still want to replace God?
That is a good article. Technology is changing everything.
ReplyDeleteBut one point. The writer seems to be confused about that "the church" is. The church is not a building or an organization, and it has never been.
When any two believers are together - two or more - that is church, regardless of where they are.
The structure of the church is changing though.
It has always changed.
There are virtually no biblical instructions on how to do church ... so ... whatever works.
On technology.
It is interesting how the writer makes the point that with all the computer bibles available and connnections with other people around the world, people may not want to go to the local building that is called a church.
That is a valid point.
And, it is true in society as well.
Studies are showing that while computers make us more connected to people around the world - people have fewer real friends and do less socially than people did 50 years ago.....
thats something to think about.
I find it interesting that the city attorney waited until Dotty Smith was voted off the commission before actively pursuing this attack on Christianity.
ReplyDeleteIm not too sure there is a connection there. She was city attorney before Dotty was a commissioner.
ReplyDeleteI dont know what the motivation is.
There are people on the commission now that I know nothing about.
Dont know if one of them asked her to look into it.
Or if this is just something she came up with.
are people in AC getting fired up at all? Is anyone paying attention to this? The article said it was talked about in worksession, and not at the regular meeting. Many issues are born in worksession and die silently, never to be heard of again.
Personally i think i would be cool if different religions in town were invited to open the meetings with a prayer. But i think they would have to have a group in town to qualify.
you would have to define religion in some way ...
and what constitutes a group..
but there are muslims, buddhists and pagans in AC. Though none of them have a "church" that i know of in town.
"Btw: Most of the laws that govern our society were based on the 10 commandments albeit there is a push to remove any mention of them in Government!"
ReplyDeleteI love when christians invoke the ten commandments, when they do not follow them. Have you ever worked on Sunday? The bible says that is punishable by death!
"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death." Exodus 31:15
I bet the majority of you can't even name the ten commandments without looking them up.
"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death." Exodus 31:15
ReplyDeleteWell by your interpretation of the Bible we can be assured that just shy of 50% of the population in America are SAFE! (especially those who are students, unemployed, retired, or are on some other type of Government Program)!
Did it say anything about those who don't work the other six days?
Btw: I went to school with an individual who is a Captain for one of the Major Airlines. He lives in a large city and due to his schedule often has to fly on weekends! (Sometimes on three or four day routes.)
ReplyDeleteBut there are some of the larger churches in the city where he lives that have church services during the week to accomodate those who can't attend on Sundays!
So he makes the Sundays he can and attends the weekly services when he can - I don't think his honoring God the best he can goes UNNOTICED!
But then again he believes there is a GOD!
Nope. Sorry. According to your bible, he has to die. But hey, don't kill the messenger. I didn't write it. I don't even believe it. But if you are going to live by the bible, you can't just pick and choose what parts you want to live by.
ReplyDeleteOh, and while we're at it, do you have a teenager who talks back and doesn't show you respect? Sorry, but you have to kill them too. Actually, you are going to have to take them to a city council meeting and they will help you stone them to death. Hopefully they will say a nice prayer before hand, since this will be the America that was founded on christian beliefs that you all want to live in so badly.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (King James Version)
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
You may wanty to look into the whole christian way of doing things before you decide which is better, because those are just two examples of how screwed up this country wouold be if we really did live like the bible tells us we should.
out of context, and failure to read the whole thing allows you to pick and choose and make it say what you want it to say.
ReplyDeleteyour the one picking things out to distort what it really says.
too bad theres not anything in there about how to get rid of stupidity
was it forest gump who said ... you just cant fix stupid.
How can any of that be out of context? The bible plainly says those things. But you just keep picking and choosing which parts to believe.
ReplyDeleteYou are grasping at straws to defend something you don't understand. And Forrest Gump said "Stupid is as stupid does". You totally misquoted and took Forrest's words out of context. And, you spelled "you're" wrong.
"out of context, and failure to read the whole thing allows you to pick and choose and make it say what you want it to say."
ReplyDeleteThen by all means, enilghten me as to what "the whole thing" means, if what I showed you was taken out of context. Show me the error of my ways, oh wise one.
You just say I am wrong, but offer no scripture or facts to back up your claim, just the same old tired "Out of context" argument that all christians use when confronted with their own idiotic scriptures.
just the same old tired "Out of context" argument that all christians use when confronted with their own idiotic scriptures.
ReplyDelete>>
Yea you twist the words beyond meaning, and then complain when you are busted for doing so .... talk about tired arguments.
To use your own words and logic.
if you have ever - even one time - said or even thought...
"the sun rose" or "the sun set"
you must admit that you are a total idiot and know nothing and everything you will ever say or think must be dismissed as utter nonsense ..
because you were so stupid as to not know that the sun does not rotate around the earth ...
"Yea you twist the words beyond meaning, and then complain when you are busted for doing so .... talk about tired arguments."
ReplyDeleteHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Twist the words??? I copied scriptures word for word, and you accuse me of twisting them?? That is hilarious. Then I ask you to explain how they were taken out of context and you come up with NOTHING!
BRAVO!! You certainly showed me!
The death penalty thing was revoked later. It was just for that time.
ReplyDeleteYou know, with some meds and counseling you might be able to overcome - or at least come to terms with - your anger issues.
What do the rest of you think. Should his/her comments stay or get the axe?
I am the one with anger issues when the other poster calls me names and I simply try to debate by posting scriptures, then I get no real answers, only tired old arguments? And now you say I need medication and couseling?
ReplyDeleteHow very christian of you.
Oh, and you should definitely axe my comments. It would be the christian thing to do.. only allowing the viewpoint that agrees with you. In the old days you would have just led a group of like minded christians to my home to kill me and maybe display my body for all the other non believers to see.
And there are only two people who still read this blog, so who exactly are you asking? Me and the person I am trying to debate? It will be you two to my one, so go ahead and delete them.
rational thought = anger issues around here.
ReplyDeleteYou post things out of context, and then get mad when that is explained to you.
ReplyDeleteYou are just really wrong about a lot of things.
That isnt calling you names.
When people try to show you how you are twisting things out of their real meaning, you get angry, and accuse them of not answering you.
The answer to your issue is that things changed over time as Gods revelation developed.
The death sentences over everything were harsh, but this was 4,000 years ago. Those rules were changed later.
Also, the death may refer to spiritual death as well.
Now, that is a simple, rational answer to your problem. I did not call you names, and i have written kindly to you , the truth.
In spite of your anger and mean spirit, God loves you and will forgive you and give meaning to your life.
I gotta jump in here and say that no one explained anything to him/her. Go back and read the comments. No one tried to show them how things were twisted. That is what he/she asked for, but no one did it. They just attacked.
ReplyDeleteThank you 2:13, but it's no use. They see things the way they want to, not how they actually are.
ReplyDeleteBut while we are on the subject, I thought this was interesting:
According to one of the world's leading Biblical archaeologists, William G. Dever,
"Archaeology certainly doesn't prove literal readings of the Bible...It calls them into question, and that's what bothers some people. Most people really think that archaeology is out there to prove the Bible. No archaeologist thinks so." From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. William Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the "archeological revolution." Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people."
And I am wondering if you have prepared for the end of the world on May 21st?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/04/may-21-2011-judgment-day_n_804166.html
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html
ReplyDeletehttp://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atheismintro3.html
ReplyDeleteI clicked on your link to a bunch of links, and then the first link I clicked on said:
ReplyDelete"Will all those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ be sent to hell? First we must note that the Bible says God will judge all people righteously. It seems there will be a stricter judgment for those who have rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ than those who have never heard."
And then I have to ask why Xians send missionaries to third world countries to tell people about Jesus when they would have been better off not knowing. Imagine it. The day before the missionaries arrive, half the tribe is wiped out by an act of god (pun intended). All those villagers would go to heaven because they had never been told about Jesus. THEN, the day after the missionaries leave, another act of god (maybe AIDS) wipes out the rest of the tribe, but because they had heard about Jesus and not yet accepted him into their hearts, they all go to hell. Way to go missionaries!!
Another click gives us this gem:
ReplyDelete"Although there is no direct evidence for the cause of the universe, we now have a fair amount of knowledge about the early history of the universe and the laws that govern it, which provide us with indirect evidence that a super-intelligent Agent designed the universe."
lol. That's like saying we have no evidence of who broke into your car, but because we know your car got broken into, and we have knowledge about how cars work, that is indirect evidence that a magical man who lives in the clouds did it. He's probably listening to your Ozzy Osbourne CDs on a golden CD player as we speak.
Thank you so much for the new resource. You really can't make this stuff up.
Will all those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ be sent to hell? First we must note that the Bible says God will judge all people righteously.1 It seems there will be a stricter judgment for those who have rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ than those who have never heard.2 Paul tells us that those who have never heard of the law are not imputed sin under the law.3 Paul also tells us that those who follow the law (e.g., practicing Jews) will be judged by the law.4 The people who have never heard of the law are judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts:
ReplyDeleteFor when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)
See, you just pick out the parts that satisfy your view!
ReplyDeleteThere are some really good articles and websites that support the existence of God!
Even Science as it relates to the Bible!
I really don't expect you to find them or believe what those people are saying - but the Guy who developed God and Science.org was raised an agnostic!
"See, you just pick out the parts that satisfy your view!"
ReplyDeleteYou said the same thing I did. I just trimmed it for length. The added part did not change anything.
"There are some really good articles and websites that support the existence of God!"
Articles and websites written by men and women who believe in a magical god. But ZERO scientific evidence. ZERO. NONE. NADA. ZIP. ZILCH.
The words "christian scientist" is an oxymoron. REAL Science takes facts and tries to form a conclusion from those facts. Christian science takes conclusions from a fictional book and tries to make the facts fit them. That is not science.
It is supposed to storm tonight. May your god strike me down with a thunderous bolt if he truly exists.
ReplyDeleteHe was answered.
ReplyDeletewith simple facts, so he says no they were not answered
he was answered again, and he says they are not answered.
yada yada yada
he comes around anytime anything religious is mentioned and does this.
Its basically called spamming.
The answer to his question, for about the 10th time,
yes there was death penalty for breaking the commandments .... 4,000 years ago.
2,000 years ago those things were revoked.
and really they were before that.but it wasnt officially written until then.
that is why his comments are out of context.
IT IS ANSWERED
and you can say it has not been forever, but ... the facts show you to be wrong about that too.
Sorry,
im not being mean or attacking, im just telling the truth.
He took the bible verse out of context
I have said may times, a single verse by itself has no meaning.
It only has meaning within its context.
The poster also said no christian follows the 10 commandments, and something like none of them could even name them.
That sounds like an attack to me.
But
from here on out his posts will be deleted. and if you dont like it don't let the screen door hit ya where the good lord split ya....
That's funny, because my preacher reads one bible verse, no matter whether it's from the old or new testament, and then talks about it for over an hour, telling us how it fits into today's world. So, should I just tell him next Sunday that he is taking things out of context? No one verse by itself means anything?
ReplyDeleteYou should read the entire bible, study it well.
ReplyDeleteand then you will know if he is out of context or not.
why dont you ask him about context ...
What do you think of this JJ?
ReplyDelete"Only recently, through careful study of information found in the Bible, we now know the precise timeline of the world’s history, from the creation year of 11,013 BC to Christ's return on May 21, 2011 to the final destruction of the world on October 21, 2011. By God's grace and tremendous mercy, He is giving us advanced warning as to what He is about to do. On Judgment Day, May 21st, 2011, this 5-month period of horrible torment will begin for all the inhabitants of the earth. It will be on May 21st that God will raise up all the dead that have ever died from their graves. Earthquakes will ravage the whole world as the earth will no longer conceal its dead (Isaiah 26:21). People who died as saved individuals will experience the resurrection of their bodies and immediately leave this world to forever be with the Lord. Those who died unsaved will be raised up as well, but only to have their lifeless bodies scattered about the face of all the earth. Death will be everywhere." -familyradio.com
The bible says no one knows the hour - (read day or time) - of the end of the world.
ReplyDeleteJesus even said, when people say "here it is" dont believe them or follow them.
A lot of people have made predictions before ...
careful study of the bible shows that there is no timeline...
that would be day after tomorrow.
i dont know which is worse really ... those who twist the bible to try to make it untrue, or those that twist it for monetary gain and self promotion .. as per family radio.com
at least real religious people should know better
Below is from his website. so he predicted the same thing in 1994 and nothing happened, so he said he missed something... how convenient, a ready made excuse already set for may 22...
ReplyDeletehe says he has biblical proof, but doesnt offer any....
be interesting to see what is website says on the 22nd....
""
Didn't Harold Camping say that the world would end in 1994?
In 1992 Mr. Camping wrote a book entitled 1994? In that book Mr. Camping highlighted the abundant evidence pointing to 1994 as a probable year of Christ's return. Given the abundance of information pointing 1994 and the urgency of time, the book 1994? was written. Mr. Camping felt as a teacher, he must share the Biblical information he had found and warn the world.
Important subsequent biblical information was not yet known, so this book was incomplete. Mr. Camping warned there may be something he overlooked therefore the question mark was prominently placed on the title.
There's no question mark this time!!! Better get your zombie weapons oiled up and ready to go for Sunday!! It's ON!! The Zombie Apocalypse!! WOOOOHOOOOO!!!
ReplyDeleteHas the commission asked for prayer from the Jewish faith, or Muslim, Hindu or Wiccan? What if a local Satanist wanted to offer the prayer at the next meeting? Would he be welcome? Seems to me like they are endorsing one religion over another.
ReplyDeleteWhile were at it, has the city attorney prepared for the lawsuit which might arise from the crosses, and verse on scripture hill? Last I checked, it was on city owned property. Would city leaders be amenable to my erecting a sign there that read "There is no God but Allah"?
ReplyDeleteJust wondering.
Just so you know... that isn't me. But it's nice to know there are some other rational people around.
ReplyDeleteI had not considered the crosses and scripture on city property. That is city property, right? It would be nice to get an opinion from the city attorney on that.
It definitely does promote one religion over another (or none).
@ godless heathen: yeah, that was me. I do consider myself a Christian, or at least a follower of the way of Christ. That being said, I realize we live in a multi-cultural, pluralistic society, and that most certainly there are "truth's" to be found in other faith expressions. I do not believe the government should be endorsing a religion, which they are doing in both cases. Prayer and crosses. I also believe Jesus would not welcome such endorsement. That was in fact one of the things he railed against the most...
ReplyDelete@godless: Sorry your voice has been silenced. I am a 3rd year seminarian, and consider myself to have more than a cursory understanding of scripture and theology. Know that there is more than one way to interpret Biblical texts, and not all of them require you to believe the Bible is the inerrant infallible word of God. I do not believe God spoke from on high and dictated every word of scripture. I believe scripture, (Hebrew and Christian) is Judaism and Christianity’s best attempt to understand the divine, and its relationship with it. Christians Jews have chosen to call the divine God. Other peoples in other places have called God by a different name. Nevertheless, their scriptures are also an attempt to understand the mind and will of the divine. Sometimes, we get it right and it is beautiful. At other times, we have been very wrong and we need to say so. Scriptures that call for genocide or the death penalty are an abhorrence, and have been used by people of faith to justify some pretty atrocious behavior in the name of God. I believe this is the case with regards to racism, woman’s issues and homosexuality. Religion should never be used to subjugate those who do not look, act or think like us.
ReplyDeleteAll of that being said, I think that scripture can be best understood when viewed as myth and allegory. Following the 10 commandments would be a good way to live one’s life, whether or not you believe God handed them down to Moses on Mt. Sinai. Modeling your behavior on the life and teaching of Jesus would serve you well, whether or not you believed he was the son of God.
So you might ask, how do I interpret the life death and resurrection of Jesus? I believe that Jesus lived a Godly life to the extent that all of us have that of the divine within us; Jesus was a child of God. Jesus lived to his potential, and extended grace, mercy, love and forgiveness to all whom he encountered. Jesus stood with the poor, the widowed, the orphaned, those who were hungry, naked and in prison and said I love you because God loves you, and I have a responsibility to care for you. Jesus stood against empire. Jesus said the Rome, and Ceaser were not God. Jesus says The United States, and Bill Clinton, George Bush or Barack Obama are not God. Much as Jeremiah Wright said “America be damned,” Jesus said “Rome be damned.” Jesus refused to be complicit in empire, and called people to come out of it. Jesus said it was wrong for any government to exploit its people.
For that Jesus was killed. Jesus was killed because he was not willing to be silent in the face of oppression. He was not willing to conform. He would not be complicit. And, he was killed by the very people he was trying to save; you and me. We reacted the way society always does to grace, with violent resistance. The amazing thing is, God said I love you anyways. How do we live in response to this? We are called to follow Jesus. To be agents of grace, mercy, love, forgiveness. We are called to be faithful witnesses against empire, even unto death. To do justice, love mercy and walk humbly. When we become the incarnational presence of Jesus Christ to and for one another, we participate in the resurrection. It is the only way it is made real. Apart from this, Jesus might have well stayed in the tomb. God is not honored by prayers at public meetings, or crosses on the hill. In fact, absent justice and mercy on the part of the commission, I am certain that God finds these acts abhorrent.
4:59,
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for your well thought out, and well written response. All I usually get when I ask questions about religion is slammed and called names. Your response gives me some hope for people of your faith. JJ has never taken the time to respond in a manner that was anything but confrontational and condescending.
I feel much the same way you do about the Ten Commandments and Jesus' message. The bible, in some cases, does give meaningful lessons on how to live. I differ in that I do not believe that he was sent to Earth by a magical being and rose from the grave after being murdered. I like to point out to people exactly what you said.. that the bible is not the be all and end all book that many people believe it is. There are some truly attrocious things in there. What you and I understand is that you can believe part of it without having to have everything in it be true.
When confronted with this, JJ gets extremely defensive, and tries to say that context makes every word of the bible true, and that if something is contradicted, it's just because I took something out of context. If I understand you correctly, you and I know that isn't true.
I think the bible is the work of man, trying to explain our place in the universe, much in the same way the ancient Romans (or any number of civilizations) tried to explain things like the Sun and Stars and Volcanoes by saying that gods were responsible for all things they could not understand. I also think that it has been corrupted in order to control man in many instances.
I will admit, I do let my emotions get the best of me sometimes when all I get is the runaround about how I am filled with hate, or I just take things out of context, simply because I point out biblical contradiction, errors, or attrocities that no one wants to discuss. I wish more Christians were like you, and could actually debate their beliefs. JJ could learn a great deal from you.
Thank you for your response.
@godless: Thanks again. I think most Christians would be shocked if they knew that the sacred stories they hold so dear were borrowed from other traditions. The Epic of Gilgamesh is an ancient Sumarian poem recounting a flood, sent by God that wipes out creation. There is an ark, and animals, and a raven and a dove if memory serves me correctly. It is from Mesopotamia and pre-dates the Noah story by nearly 1,000 years. Mithra is an ancient Roman religion which pre-dates Christianity by at least 500 years. Mithrans believed that the God Mithras, God of light, was born of a virgin, was crucified buried in a cave and ressurected. Mithrans practiced baptism, and celebrated communion.
ReplyDeleteSorry your voice has been silenced. I am a 3rd year seminarian, and consider myself to have more than a cursory understanding of scripture and theology.
ReplyDeleteBoy am I ever disappointed in what they are teaching at some of our Seminaries!
Jesus was the SON OF GOD! He died to fulfill PROPHECY and to make a way (it possible) for ALL people who accept HIM to reach HEAVEN.
(By forgiveness, grace and mercy!)
Even the ones who had broken all the RULES!
Something the Jews and Jewish leaders didn't think was possible!
The Romans (empire) found no guilt in Jesus and turned him (and the matter)over to the Jewish leaders who wanted him KILLED!
It was the Jewish (religious) leaders who really feared Jesus not the Romans!
The Jews could not accept that HE was the Messiah because they were looking for a GREAT LEADER who could/would REIGN OVER ALL THINGS!
Btw: The part your really missing is that Jesus is alive in People's hearts TODAY!
ReplyDelete(Not a made up God/Savior in some book!)
From both of your posts its evident you don't know Jesus!
"I think most Christians would be shocked if they knew that the sacred stories they hold so dear were borrowed from other traditions. The Epic of Gilgamesh is an ancient Sumarian poem recounting a flood, sent by God that wipes out creation. There is an ark, and animals, and a raven and a dove if memory serves me correctly. It is from Mesopotamia and pre-dates the Noah story by nearly 1,000 years. Mithra is an ancient Roman religion which pre-dates Christianity by at least 500 years. Mithrans believed that the God Mithras, God of light, was born of a virgin, was crucified buried in a cave and ressurected. Mithrans practiced baptism, and celebrated communion."
ReplyDeleteTHANK YOU! I have brought that up a few times on here, only to be called names, and usually having my posts deleted. JJ doesn't want to deal with anything that contradicts his belief that everything in the bible is true. He takes all the stories absolutely literally. Kinda like I did when I was in Sunday school. The difference being that I grew to be skeptical when the questions I had could not be answered to my satisfaction. It's hard to find a Christian who canstep outside of their faith and even contemplate that someone might question the word of god.
To the poster at 8:19 and 8:33, you can believe anything you want, that doesn't make it fact. I am only interested in facts, and what can be proven. Faith does not equal fact in most instances. By studying the actual bible, and religion in general, not just the stories you were told in Sunday school, many things come to light that most churches would rather you didn't know. That is a fact. Try actually sitting down and reading the whole bible some time. You will be shocked when you get off the beaten path of what the preachers like to hit on.
8:33, one more thing.. The difference between me and you is that if suddenly I was faced with the absolute fact of an all powerful god (say a talking bush, or a voice from on high, maybe an angel in my garden) I would change what I believed in that very instance. That is what science does.. it changes the conclusion to match the facts, not the other way around. If someone were to prove that there was no god (let's pretend there is a way to prove a negative), I think you would still believe, just because your faith is so ingrained in you. To admit that what you were told all your life were only stories would be to say a huge part of your life was a lie. Most christians could never admit to that.
ReplyDeleteI did. I was raised in the church. You think my parents like the fact that I'm now an atheist? Heck no! But I have to live my life by facts, not stories.
Jesus died because he would not be silent, and submit to Roman authority. Jesus would not prophess that Ceaser Was Lord. Rather, Jesus said, "God is Lord." He also found fault with the religious leaders who were cheating widows and the poor in the temple, and were cooperating with Rome, and compromising their faith. This angered both sides. The church has come to believe that Christs death was part of some divine plane laid at the beginning of time, but I cannot believe this, and it has not always been Christian doctrine. God tells us over and over again in scripture that he does not desire sacrifice. Why would such a violent death make us right with God. Did God look down from heaven, see the depravity that we had sunk into,the way we lie to one another, cheat and steal, rape and murder and say, "I'll send my son to show them how to live?" Yes, Christians believe this. Does it then make sense to believe that we rejected Christ, brutally murdered him, and that God looked down and said, "Oh, good. You murdered my son, now I can forgive you?" How is any of that atoning? Seriously. Please explain.
ReplyDeletehe Epic of Gilgamesh is an ancient Sumarian poem recounting a flood, sent by God that wipes out creation. There is an ark, and animals, and a raven and a dove if memory serves me correctly. It is from Mesopotamia and pre-dates the Noah story by nearly 1,000 years. Mithra is an ancient Roman religion which pre-dates Christianity by at least 500 years.
ReplyDelete>Y>>
You will say i am being confrontational, but truth is truth.
Gilgamesh is very ancient.
The ancient hebrew texts are as well.
Most scholars agree that there is no way to tell which is older.
Gilgamesh could have just as easilly have copied from the hebrews ...
Also the roman story is not anything like the christian story whatsoever, they are so different that it is just plain silly to say one is even related to the other.
im just saying truth here
im not attacking
yea heathen s voice has been silenced. im letting him say bad things about me, but that makes me the bad guy ... yea thats real open minded.
I explained carefully and kindly to him the problem he had with misinterpreting things ... but that was an attack too i guess ....
this is not an attack here
the mithras stories are not even close to the biblical stories,
look them up and read them
"Oh, good. You murdered my son, now I can forgive you?" How is any of that atoning? Seriously. Please explain.
ReplyDelete>>
Jesus was God in the flesh. When jesus died, God died, and rose again.
God did not look down and see his son die, God died on the cross .. paying the price himself for your sins.
, I think you would still believe, just because your faith is so ingrained in you. To admit that what you were told all your life were only stories would be to say a huge part of your life was a lie
ReplyDelete>>>
I am glad you know me so well, and know why i think what i do, even better than I do.
It is amazing to me how you can accuse people of not thinking and being narrowminded, when you are being more judgmental than i could ever be.....
But.
My faith is not blind faith.
I know God. I know Jesus.
I have proof. but it is as Jesus said, no can come to jesus, or see jesus, unless it is revealed spiritually...
You could just as easily say my parents do not exist...
i know my parents
i know God.
both are facts.
Just because you do not see it, does not mean it doesnt exist.
But some of you are very judgemental on here.
Anytime anything related to faith is mentioned, you have to say what an idiot i am for believing .. and if i challenge that at all, i am the bad guy ....
i have plenty of evidence and i have shared it... you dismiss it no matter what.
you are just like obama birthers... they have the birth certificate and still do not believe ...
i am willing to seriously discuss faith matters with anyone who is open minded and seriously wants to discuss the issues.
"I explained carefully and kindly to him the problem he had with misinterpreting things ... "
ReplyDeleteI don't recall that ever happening. Link please.
You know JJ has made some good points - I actually waited to respond Today just in case I wasn't here - that would be the kind of fact you are seeking! (Just kidding but the Bible does say to be on guard for Jesus return!)
ReplyDeleteI had all these posts with references to scripture - deleted them all!
The bottom line - You can remove Prayer from the City Commission meetings, the crosses from scripture hill, shutter all the churches
(thats already been done) kill all the professing believers ... all physical references to God or Jesus! Even ban the Bible!
But
You can't remove Jesus from people's Hearts!
I don't really think God is all that impressed with Mans tributes to GOD! (After all He did create the Universe and Mankind!)
Jesus, wants to be a personal GOD to you!
(He wants his temple to be you!)
So, your going to have to ask HIM!
Thats the thing about Chistianity - nobody can do it for you! (They most likely won't try to tell you what to do - Just what Jesus means and has done for them!)
I'll be praying for you!
I don't recall that ever happening. Link please.
ReplyDelete..
I used simple basic logic that an elementary student could understand.
At least three times.
Read the comments and you will see them.
Each time i did you accused me of attacking and not explaining ....
so ...
im not doing it again.
read the posts and you will find it at least 3 times....
JJ, your statement that scholars debate which came first, Gilgamesh or Hebrew scripture simply isn't true. A simple Google search will bear this out. Doesn't negate the truth of Genesis or Exodus by any means, both could have been written accounts based on oral tellings of an actual event. Most likely there was a flood. We just need to be honest. As far as Mithras, I can't believe you would deny the similarities. A simple Google search will prove otherwise as well. Some things gleaned from my search - "Mithra was born on December 25th. Mithra was considered a great traveling teacher and master. He had twelve companions as Jesus had twelve disciples. Mithras also performed miracles.
ReplyDeleteThey practiced ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power, played a prominent part."
Mithra was called "the good shepherd,” "the way, the truth and the light,” “redeemer,” “savior,” “Messiah." He was identified with both the lion and the lamb.
Mithra was buried in a tomb and after three days he rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year." Tell me again how there are no similarities?
He told you already!! Ten Times!! in plain English!! In simple terms!! He explained it completely and totally, leaving no doubt!!
ReplyDelete(or not)
If you ask him, that's what he will say though.
JJ, you said, "Jesus was God in the flesh. When jesus died, God died, and rose again. God did not look down and see his son die, God died on the cross .. paying the price himself for your sins." It doesn't matter where God looked out or down from, heaven, or the cross. That wasn't my point. I asked, how does such a brutal barberous murder atone for my sin? Do you really believe that is what God desired to teach us to love one another?
ReplyDeleteYou also said, "I have proof. but it is as Jesus said, no can come to jesus, or see jesus, unless it is revealed spiritually..." So, scripture says, no one can come to the father unless the spitit becons. Scripture says that we must have faith, but it also says that faith is a gift, given to us in certain measures by God. Seems kind of messed up to hold me accountable, and chastise me for my lack of faith, if my lack of faith is caused by not being gifted by God. Don't yopu think?
ReplyDeleteNot trying to bait you, seriously mean this with all due respect. Let's engage in honest debate.
Thanks
Honest debate? Good luck with that one. I find it far too frustrating to debate someone who keeps saying he told me something he didn't, or that he explained something he didn't. And then calls names when I point it out.
ReplyDeleteI hope you have better luck, but I'm not holding my breath.
well i do agree the "honest debate" phrase is rather hilarious coming from you.
ReplyDeleteyou have shown me over and over that you have no interest in honest discussion or debate.
see
ReplyDeleteYea you do need to be honest.
ReplyDeleteThe mithras thing is roman .. eastern ... much more hindu related than hebrew or christian ...
the idea of dec. 25 being jesus birthday is pagan in origin, from northern europe...
dec. 25 was a day chosen, it is not his birthday by anymeans. his birthday is not recorded ... so ...
also, the mithras scholars also do not agree that there is a real connection between it an christianity ..
the only people making this claim are athiests and im not sure of their scholarship ...
Mithras has a few hundred fragments .. meaning a sentence here and there not even connected ..
so its pretty impossible to even know what the mithras stories actually are..
as far as gilgamesh .. im just saying, you cannot honestly say one is older than the other. it is just as likely that gilgamesh copied from the hebrews. we do need to be honest.
maybe both were telling stories that had been handed down that might have been true ...
The ancient MAYA of america have a flood story and a creation story that has similiarities .. they also have the feathered serpent quetzalqotal (cant spell it) who died and rose again for the people ... He was to return again, and when the spanish showed up, they thought it was him ... which made the conquest must easier.
that was in mexico about 200-300 a.d. ...
of course you probably would not admit that the fact that ALL ancient cultures have a flood and creation story wiht similiarities, could mean that they are similar because they have the same source .....
CHeck this out
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm
Absolutely am willing to admit that they are most likely similar because they have a common origin. My point exactly. Each faith and culture interpret the origin story differently. Certainly the Mayans do not understand the creation and redemption stories contained in the flood accounts the same way Judeo-Christians do. This does not make their experience any less truthful or valid. The same event can be understood in a multitude of ways. God can be called many different things.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely am willing to admit that they are most likely similar because they have a common origin.
ReplyDeleteSo, in reailty how is that any different than modern times?
Where leaders often mis-lead their followers with mis-interpretations of Biblical Scripture?
Ex. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Heaven's Gate, and on and on......!
The answer is that they stray from the original version, then modify it to meet their own needs, wants and desires! Which ultimately leads to Man's version of God! (They don't serve a "living" God!)
Just like the 3rd year seminarian! Who doesn't think Jesus was the Son of God who died (the last blood sacrifice).
And
That the New Testament which was the NEW BEGINNING for how God would interact with mankind!
Btw: I think the Bible is still being "WRITTEN"
and Phophecy fulfilled! (It's not an
Ancient religion!)
Through the lives of "true believers"!
"That the New Testament which was the NEW BEGINNING for how God would interact with mankind!"
ReplyDeleteIf god is all knowing, and has a plan, why did he have to stop and rethink a new beginning for how to deal with man? Why does the New testament differ so much from the old? An all knowing, all seeing god changed his mind?
I think the poster was implying that the "new" beginning is not new at all.
ReplyDeleteThe old and new testaments are not that different.
it you look at the whole, the story unfolds from creation to the end of all things.
the names "old" and "new" were added later, not at all part of the original.
Jesus was predicted throughout the "old" testament, and there are "types" of Christs as early as Genesis 3...
but if God did want to change him mind, what would be wrong with that?
Then why does JJ always say "that was in the Old Testament, that doesn't count"?
ReplyDeleteI don't think I can recall JJ ever saying it wasn't relative because it was in the Old Testament!
ReplyDeleteThe Old Testament is full of God and his relationship with individuals! He used both believers and non-believers!
But, you can't leave out the fact that there are two opposing forces at work on Earth!
GOoD vs. EVIL! (The world is full of deceptions and misrepresentations.)
And
In the New Testament God no longer required the rituals of sacrificing Animals as atonement for Sins!
So, did God change his mind?
I think He probably did according to the religious leaders Old(past) and New(present)who saw/see fit to make their own rules/interpretations based on God's laws/principles!
Even the Modern day Jews don't accept Jesus!
(They are still waiting!)
So do the modern day Jews believe the Gentiles can be saved?
But
God is a loving God that is faithful to all Generations! (He is not done!)
I don't think God changed "his" mind, we finally figured out that God never wanted our sacrifices.
ReplyDeleteIsaiah 1:11-17
What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the Lord;
I have had enough of burnt-offerings of rams
and the fat of fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.
When you come to appear before me,
who asked this from your hand?
Trample my courts no more;
bringing offerings is futile;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and sabbath and calling of convocation—
I cannot endure solemn assemblies with iniquity.
Your new moons and your appointed festivals
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me,
I am weary of bearing them.
When you stretch out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
learn to do good;
seek justice,
rescue the oppressed,
defend the orphan,
plead for the widow.
@ anonymous 9:38am: I am the 3rd year seminarian you are referencing. I'm not sure where I wrote that I do not believe Jesus to be the son of God. I have submitted my life to the Lordship of Jesus. I do believe that he lived, died and has been resurrected. I believe that he has come again, and continues to come every time we die to self, and live for others. Sorry if that does not meet your definition of Christian. But, I am not seeking your approval.
ReplyDeleteThere is no NEW BEGINNING in the New Testament. God, through Jesus deals with us the way he always has. We we stray, screw up, seek other Gods, fail to treat others with love, justice and mercy, we kill God's only son, and God forgives us, and offers us a second chance, a third chance, a fourth...
ReplyDeleteThere is no NEW BEGINNING in the New Testament.
ReplyDeleteHow did the Holy Spirit work in the Old Testament?(He empowered individuals and even groups/Armies to do special things /tasks!)
How does he work in the New Testament?
Wasn't the Holy Spirit a gift given to the Disciples and then to all Christians who accepted Jesus after HE ascended into Heaven?
I think there was a change in how God chose to deal with People! (I think that was his Plan - not that he changed his mind!)
John 3: 3-15
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is "BORN AGAIN".
"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You must be born again. The wind blows whereever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
"You are Isreal's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our tetimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone to heaven except the one who came from heaven- the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
John 3:16 You ought to know this one by heart!
So, before Jesus no one went to heaven? Not Abraham, Issac or Jacob? Sarah, David, Solomon, Moses, Isaiah? Not in heaven? Really? Okay, if you want to be a literalist. But then what of Enoch, or Elijah. Scripture clearly says they went to heaven. Was Jesus lying? What about Lazurus and the rich man? Why would Jesus tell the story if his hearers had no understanding of what it meant to go to heaven?
ReplyDelete@ 12:47 am "John 3:16 You ought to know this one by heart!" Yeah I know it. I thionk it is more important to live like you believe it, than to think your safe because you prayed some magic sinners prayer, or confessed the "Name of Jesus," with your mouth. Don't tell me what you believe, show me.
ReplyDeleteDon't tell me what you believe, show me.
ReplyDeleteYou woud have made a good Pharisee - to bad you missed your opportunity!
What about the ones who aren't as Good as You or me?
Why would Jesus tell the story if his hearers had no understanding of what it meant to go to heaven?
ReplyDeleteProverbs 30: 4
Who has gone up to heaven and come
down?
Who has gathered up the wind in the
hollow of his hands?
Who has wrapped up the waters in his
cloak?
Wo has established all the ends of the
earth?
What is his name, and the name of his
son?
Tell me if you know!
I would have made a great Pharisee? If you say so. Problem is, I believe I am wretched and sinful, and nothing I do can earn me a place in heaven. NOTHING. No good works, no magic prayer, no "right belief." Only the love of the Father, and His desire to forgive me, and love me unconditionally.
ReplyDeleteThat was the point of the parable of the Prodigal Son. The son screwed up in a big way, and sought his father out, not because he was truly sorry, but because he knew that at least there he would not starve, even if it meant that he would be treated like a hired hand. The son planned to ask forgiveness, but it was not sincere. And what happened? While he was still a long way off, the father ran to him, embraced him, lavished his love upon him and forgave him. All of this before a single word of repentance left the sons mouth. In fact, we do not read that he ever asked for forgiveness. Further, men NEVER ran in those days. it was undignified, and yet the father was willing to loose his dignity in order to save his son. That is how our God acts toward us...
"Wo has established all the ends of the
ReplyDeleteearth?
What is his name, and the name of his
son?
Tell me if you know!"
Uh, Google maps?
That is how our God acts toward us...
ReplyDeleteIt was the Prodical Sons decision to return to his fsther - not the Father running after his Son! The Father accepted his return and graciously accepted hin back into His Family!
God treats us the way He always treated us through out History!
He dosen't run after us - He waits on us!
(Sometimes a whole lifetime!)
The decision is ours!
But you would agree that the decision is either worship god or burn in hell, right?
ReplyDeleteTough rules your loving and forgiving god has. Worship me or be tortured for eternity. I'm certainly glad it is all made up by man, and there isn't a real being like that out there somewhere. jeez, what a tyrant.
It isn't God's job to seek and to save the lost?
ReplyDeleteThe father doesn't run to his son? Luke 15:20 “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him." Sounds like he ran to me... What about the parable of the lost sheep, or the lost coin? Neither the coin or the sheep did anything to be found. Their owners did all they could to find them. They did not "wait on them" to be found. God loves us because we are God's children. God forgave us while we were yet sinners. We are loved and forgiven. God constantly reminds us that we are more than the sum of our failures although religion does its best to tell us otherwise. Scripture contains scant evidence that there is a hell in the sense most of us envision it, and certainly little evidence that any of us will spend eternity there for a finite sin. The bible is replete with passages that support "universal salvation," and yet we choose to emphasize the damnation. What is wrong with us? We have been loved, forgiven, given grace upon grace, each day we are shown new mercies... How are we to live in response to that?
The father doesn't run to his son? Luke 15:20 “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him." Sounds like he ran to me...
ReplyDeleteDid the father stop the Son from leaving? Did he go looking for the Son? Did he find him eating with the swine?
He ran to his son when he saw him returning a no doubt changed man!
I do believe God pursues individuals through their conscience - Is it right or is it wrong!
He just doesn't make their decisions!
Now we are getting somewhere. God does indeed pursue people through their conscience, not through some book of peoples attempt to understand God. Yes, there is collective wisdom in the collected stories. All scripture is useful for teaching and correction. As I said earlier, sometimes it is right, often it is wrong, but always useful. God speaks to, and has written God's law on our hearts. That is the most useful revelation.... If your heart contradicts scripture, I say go with your heart.
ReplyDeleteIf your heart contradicts scripture, I say go with your heart.
ReplyDeleteBut, there are two opposing forces whispering in you ear/heart (mind)!
Which one are you going to listen to?
Which one will you follow?
How will you decide?
Often only through scripture, prayer and the counsel of other believers will you know who is the real Deceiver!
Again, you are correct. BUT, I sincerely believe that we know which voice is the voice of God. We know innately. We may choose to ignore the voice, or rationalize our reasons for acting contrary, but we know. Yes, often we can find confirmation in scripture, but we know. God will never ask you to do something that will tear down another, or exploit another. God will never ask us to compromise our integrity, to lie, cheat, steal. To seek self gain over others. If it feels wrong, it probably is. Yes, we need pray, and seek the counsel of others; I believe studying scripture is seeking the wisdom of others from our past. We are after all surrounded by a great cloud of witness...
ReplyDeleteYes, often we can find confirmation in scripture, but we know. God will never ask you to do something that will tear down another,
ReplyDeleteWell did you know that God doesn't really like partnerships in business? So, what if your partner asked you to do something that God doesn't or wouldn't want you to do?
Kind of reminds me of how people want to use Government to get others to do or agree with things that go against their true beliefs?
Abortion is probably one of the first on the list! How about lying to qualify or get on Government programs or assistance. (Maybe working for cash and drawing unemployemnt?
and on and on......!
God can't or won't work in your life if you are letting someone else direct your path!
Exactly. Jesus said pretty clearly we can not have two allegiances, whether to your business partner, or to the government. If either call for you to compromise your integrity, you had better think twicwe...
ReplyDeleteAbortion. What would Jesus do?
ReplyDeleteProbably counsel against it, and then love the person who had one...
ReplyDeleteHey Godless Heathen, I was just rereading some of the posts in this string, and wanted to share this with you. Someways back in the thread, you cited a verse from Deuteronomy that called for rebellious children to be stoned to death. As you rightly noted, this is harsh and barbaric, and certainly not in keeping with a God of grace, mercy, forgiveness and love. Some said you took this out of context, but I do not believe you did. The rabbi's of Jesus day had similar problems with the text, and couldn't wrap their heads around it, so... they rewrote it. They gave it an authoritative interpretation which Jesus would have been well familiar with. It is contained in a collection of wisdom known as the Mishna. This interpretation places limits upon who may be stoned. Such severe limits that in fact, no one could ever qualify for such a punishment. See- mishnahyomit.org/sanhedrin/Sanhedrin%208-2.doc
ReplyDelete