Press Release: Health Issue concerning the City’s Raccoon population
The Arkansas City Police Department Animal Control Unit would like to alert the citizens of Arkansas City of a potential health problem with the area’s raccoon population. ACO Officers have picked up several raccoons that have been obviously ill; acting very listless, having difficulty walking, drooling, pale almost white gums, and some may have been feverish. The Police department ACO Unit wants citizens to be aware of the potential health issue with these wild animals and alert citizens coming into contact with raccoons NOT to have any interaction with these animals, touch them, or attempt to trap them. Make sure household pets have proper immunizations including the DHLPP. Consult your veterinarian for more information.
The raccoons in question have not shown any aggression toward humans. However, they are wild animals and if they don’t run from you they may be sick. Our observations have been passed on to local veterinarians and they suggested that we alert residents so pets can be properly immunized to avoid spreading any type of disease.
If anyone sees a raccoon acting strange and sick, call 620-441-4448 and leave a message for Animal Control to come and dispose of the animal. If after hours, call 620-441-4444 and the Dispatcher will contact someone to dispose of the animal. The Arkansas City Police Department’s Animal control Unit thanks the citizens of Arkansas City for their cooperation helping keep our city’s pets healthy and safe.
This has nothing to do with sick racoons.
ReplyDeleteJJ, I know that you are a man of God, and know a lot about religion, so I come to you with this. I am searching for a church home for my family. I came across this mission statement for one church that I wasn't sure how to take, and I wondered if you or your readers might give me your take. The mission statement is as follows.
We are a congregation which is unashamedly White and unapologetically Christian. Our roots in the White religious experience and traditions are deep, lasting, and permanent... We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expressions of a White worship service and minestries which address the White community.
We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These White Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes , churches, nurseries, and schools, wherever Whites are gathered. They must reflect the following concepts:
1. Commitment to God.
2. Commitment to the White community.
3. Commitment to the White family.
4. Dedication to the pursuit of education.
5. Dedication to the pursuit of excellence.
6. Adherence to the White work ethic.
7. Commitment to self discipline and self respect.
8. Disavowal of the pursuit of "middleclassness".
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the White community.
10. Pledge to allocate regularly, a portion of the personal resources for strengthening and supporting the White community.
11. Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the White value system.
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the "White Value System".
Have you ran across a church like this in your studies? If so, would you recommend at least going to a few sermons and checking it out?
Thanks for any help or advice you or your readers might have.
Im assuming you are serious.
ReplyDeleteI have never run across anything like that. I have met some people who might fit in there, but never seen it as an official doctrine.
I would run from a place like that as fast as i could, shaking the dust off my feet.
I would not recommend even going into their parking lot if you had a flat and needed to pull over.
Id like to know if this is a church here in this area.
It is a good idea to read the mission statement of a church though. I always do that.
I go to first american baptist, on central and A street. Its a pretty nice church. Cool looking old building and great music. Nice people. Most people there are fairly beige actually.
Id recommend it.
Woud you consider that mission statement racist, or just proud of their heritage?
ReplyDeleteId call it heretical.
ReplyDeleteDoes not sound proud of heritage, or biblical in hte least.
And im just wondering... being the suspicious person I am.. i would say the same if it listed black instead of white.
I do understand being proud of southern heritage, which is not racist at all.
sounds like a klan church to me. Is that around here?
ReplyDeleteI am searching for a church home for my family. I came across this mission statement for one church that I wasn't sure how to take,
ReplyDeleteSounds like they told you what they believe!
Is that what YOU believe?
How is that any different than other religious groups who aspire to make or intepret a religion and make it meet their standards!
How do you justify some of the other religions that clearly minimize the role of Women?
How do you justify those who promote multiple wives or child brides?
Would you join those churches or cults?
or
Would you deny them the right to form?
Remember the Koolaid?
Remember the Comet's tail?
There are some bad ones out there.
ReplyDeleteThat is why its important to know about these things.
And to study.
But this is america. Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion.
You cant keep them from starting, but if you educate yourself, you wont be deceived.
JJ, I believe the poster above is baiting you.
ReplyDeleteThis sounds an awful lot like the mission statement of Barak Obama's former church, pastored by Jeremiah Wright. They just substituted the word white for black. From a black perspective, I do not believe this to be a racist mission statement. Whites do not come from a history of oppression, prejudice, and segregation that systematically tried to erase their heritage. While things have come a long way in a relatively short period of time, racism and prejudice still exist. It is perhaps more covert, and insidious. I have no problem with an ethnic group wanting to find, and hold onto their identity, and heritage, and work together for the good of their people. Churches all over the country do it. We have churches that hold services in Korean, German, Russian... That is really not all that different.
None of them ever tells someone from another race or ethnicity that they are not welcome.
Jeremiah Wrights church had several white members.
But, for a white person, who as a group had been in a position of privilege, and power to gather under the above mission statement smacks of white supremacy. I do not see a church operating under that mission statement welcoming a black person.
JJ, indeed this is the mission of Trinity Church in Chicago, Barack Obama's former church. A quick google search confirms this.
ReplyDeleteThe Us government has a long history of mistreatment of "non-whites". Just look at what it did to Native Americans, look at the Tuskegee Syphilis experiments, look at segregation, these things were from our fairly recent past. From that stand point, perhaps you can understand their desire to regain their roots, and their identity. Perhaps you can understand their mistrust of government.
JJ,
ReplyDeleteOkay, this is the part where I admit to misleading you a bit to prove a point. I am not really considering going to this church.
However, I am very interested in hearing your response to the mission statement without having that response tainted.
How would you feel about your neighbor going to that church? Your friend? Your family?
How about your President?
Change the word "white" to "black", and that is the mission statement of the Trinity Unity Church in Chicago. The Church led by Rev. Jeremiah Wright. It is available on their website (www.tucc.org)
Im not surprised. I suspected as much.
ReplyDeleteI do understand that there has been oppression and mistreatment of minorities.
I sort of understand preserving one's heritage and all that.
Theologically, I still have a problem with that.
I understand regaining their roots, but i dont think it should be part of a church's creed.
Here is one thing I don't understand.
There was a long struggle to gain equality, and it continues. Martin Luther King Jr., Dreamed of a day when blacks and whites would be the same ..
yet today black activists want things like a black student union, black student government. black heritage day and so forth.
It seems like, now that they have pretty much defeated segregation, that they are wanting to return to segregation.
How do you support black history month and at the same time call white history month racist?
Christians particularly, shouldn't be thinking of themselves as "black" christians, "white" christians, "native american" christians.
There is a line somewhere, where preserving one's heritage becomes seperatism and ultimately racism.
Yea im not too surprised. I really suspected that.
ReplyDeleteNo question, obama's pastor in chicago is pretty radical, and his church is too. But, if you admit this, then you have to admit he isn't a muslim dont you?
A lot of people have no idea what their church believes. So, I wouldn't judge them too harshly.
Even though I might disagree with their theology and or mission statement.
I think people are trying to attack obama in any way they can, so any link they can find to anything radical or extreme, or questionable, you can be sure they will jump on it.
Liberals did the same with Bush.
So. bottom line. I think his former pastor and his church is radical and I dont agree with their mission statement.
But it is writ .. by their fruits you will know them.
I would try to not judge a person by what church they go to, but by their fruits.
(Fruits means actions)
This reminded me. On my bible study site, i have a statement of beliefs. These are my personal core beliefs, or mission statement..
ReplyDeletehttp://jesushunter.com/files/core_beliefs.htm
I'd have to go back and look up the statistics-
ReplyDeleteBut, in a previous post it was stated the breakdown for the U.S.! ( The article was about when whites will become the minority!)
Whites are still the majority by a smaller and smaller margin! (That probably can be attributed to our practice of abortion!)Whites will be less than fifty percent in the next decade if not before!
The Hispanic group has increased the most and will continue into the future! They are surpassing the blacks and competing for their benefits and lobbying status in Government!
The Black Population was something like 19% and was to remain unchanged? (In the article)
Now something tells me that there is a Culture within a culture and that culture is failing!
If you look at some of the Black Leaders like Colin Powell, and Bill Cosby?
They denounce the very culture that other Black leaders promote! They understand the failed policies of their culture! The gangs,
the poverty, the hopelessness of choosing to be different and demanding to be the Same!
There is group of Radicals who believe that equality can only be achieved through FORCE!
When True eqaulity is about sharing the burdens as well as the SUCCESS!
With a Society where 1 in every 11 Black Adults is in Jail or Prison!
Who is really responsible?
This all stems from a school of theology called "Black Liberation Theology." At it's core, is a belief that Jesus stands with the poor, the oppressed, and the marginalized, over and against the powerful and priveleged.
ReplyDeleteIn effect it says that God has a preferential option for the poor.
There are many forms of Liberation Theology, Black, Femenist, Latin American, Gay...
Any group that has experienced marginalization at the hands of an oppressive system view God, and their relation to God through that lens.
I am at my core a liberation theologian. I view our experience through a lens of poor marginalized vs. powerful and privledged. I believe we are called to voluntarilly divest ourselves of that power and privelege and stand with any who are oppressed. Therefor, I have a problem with any specific schools of Liberation Theology, for I believe all theology must be liberating.
But when Jeremiah Wright recounts the abuses of America against blacks, (abuses which America has never really atoned for, or apologized for,) then it is fitting for him to say, "Not God bless America, but God damn America." He is merely following in the prophetic tradition of Amos, Hosea, Isaiah... who took their own countries to task, and called for repentence. None of them were very popular...
Our pride and our arrogence does not allow for us to recognize the sins of our past, repent and apologize... And until we do, we are doomed to repeat those sins.
I agree with the last post pretty much.
ReplyDeleteCheck this out.
James 2:1-9 My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism.
Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in.
If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet,"
have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?
But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?
Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.
But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.
At it's core, is a belief that Jesus stands with the poor, the oppressed, and the marginalized, over and against the powerful and priveleged.
ReplyDeleteWhat if there is a Tyranny within the minority?
People who want to gain or retain their own power over others in their ethnic group?
Maybe God's liberation should be from them and their failed policies?
Jesus, stood against the Pharisees for that very reason!
Rev Wright also blamed the 9/11 attacks on America. Saying our "chickens were coming home to roost." The man and his church are radical and racist, no matter what color they are.
ReplyDelete@April 13, 2010 9:12 AM "Rev Wright also blamed the 9/11 attacks on America. Saying our "chickens were coming home to roost." The man and his church are radical and racist, no matter what color they are."
ReplyDeletePerhaps these were insensitive words, and uttered to soon after the attacks, but what I think Rev. Wright was saying, is that maybe we need to look at our actions around the world, and our policies, and seriously ask ourselves "why is there so much hatred and distrust for America." Is there something we have done to deserve this feeling of animosity. is there something we can do differently. I'm not saying we deserved the attack, or that it was in any way justified, but looking for causes is a conversation we must have.
It didn't happen in a vaccuum. We may have been at least somewhat complicit....
Why do black people want to dwell on the hurtful past of their ancestors? How can we ever get past any of this if they keep making an issue of color? I have plenty of black friends that you would never know are black because they choose not to dwell on something that they or any of the current white population had anything to do with. They don't want to be defined by color and I thought that's what our society and MLK was striving for. I'm just not sure I understand this thinking. It's like they just want to be victims, even though they aren't? It was their own black ancestors that sold them into slavery, yet they don't have to be held accountable for it, just the whites? It is hard for me to understand and I don't know how our society will ever move past it even though most of us want to.
ReplyDeleteYes, you can be proud of your heritage without condemning the rest of the population for something we had nothing to do with. We should all be proud of our heritage. But let's stop pointing fingers and singling ourselves out and become just...unlabled Americans.
@Amy - I think when we look at this from a white mindset, it is difficult to understand. Blacks have seen their culture decimated, they have lost their identity. Years of oppression, prejudice and segregation have caused for them a cycle of helplessness, and dependence. They are less educated, (not any less able or intelegent,)and more apt to be stuck in a cycle of institutional poverty. We cannot deny, (though lots try,) that we are privleged because of our color, and even our gender. We still do not live in a colorblind society, blacks are still being pulled over for driving while black, or being followed at he department store because they are black...
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying reperations are the answer, in fact I think that will do more harm than good, nor do I believe in quotas. I do think there needs to be open honest dialouge, and an official admission of wrongdoing, and an apology....
When I was in seminary, we held a ceremony where the seminary repented of its past practice of now allowing black students.
ReplyDeleteNow they have lots of them, and even several from africa.
several institutions in the south have done the same.
i think that is basically a good thing.
but at some point we do need to move forward.
@Amy - "I have plenty of black friends that you would never know are black because they choose not to dwell on something that they or any of the current white population had anything to do with."
ReplyDeleteHow sad. Why shouldn't you know they were black.
Why can't they embrace and celebrate their blackness. That is part of the problem, and (I believe,) what got Barack Obama elected president. 1.) He's pretty white for a black guy.
2.) We can assuage our national guilt by saying, "See, that is behind us. We elected a black president."
@Amy - "But let's stop pointing fingers and singling ourselves out and become just...unlabled Americans." The difference is, your ancestors came here willingly, and held onto their identity as a source of strength and comfort. We formed German clubs, Italian American societies, Hibernian Clubs... We call ourselves Irish Americans, Italian Americans, German, Chezkoslovakian... The list goes on and on. But, talk about black pride, say you are african american
ReplyDelete, and people cringe... The truth is, none of us are , "unlabled Americans."
.. The list goes on and on. But, talk about black pride, say you are african american
ReplyDelete, and people cringe... The truth is, none of us are , "unlabled Americans."
>>>>
Thats a good point.
There is a positive way to express one's heritage.
and to hang on to it.
But I do really think that we would be better off if people didn't insist on being hyphenated... irish-american, italian-american, african-american.
It is only a problem when one starts separating oneself from others in a negative way.
I dont see people cringing over black pride. except for some idiots.
but the ultimate goal should be the great melting pot, where you do stop being african-american or irish-american and just be a plain old american :)
Amy, I agree with you 100%
ReplyDelete11:33 said: "Why can't they embrace and celebrate their blackness."
Yes, it's wonderful thing to celebrate your heritage.
UNLESS YOU HAPPEN TO BE WHITE!!! Then you are a racist!!!!
I don't want to celebrate my whiteness. I want to ignore color. But I can't do that because everyone of a different color keeps throwing it in my face. I'm the reason their ancestors were brought here in chains just because I'm white. I'm the reason there are more minorities in prison than whites just because I'm white. I am tired of hearing about race. Am I the only one?
Because my friends just choose to be American doesn't mean they don't celebrate their black heritage. But they don't believe they are repressed because their ancestors were slaves several generations ago or hold a grudge against white people. They are truly trying to move past labels.
ReplyDeleteIf you live in Africa and you are black or white. What do they call them? Or a black person from England? Their not African-American right? Why do we have to have those labels here? I have close family ancestory to indians, and I'm not angry with anyone. I do not feel repressed or angry for what anyone did to my ancestors. I just feel like the black community also has to make a choice to move forward and not keep a division.
Again (initial post censored for some reason), what does any of this have to do with racoons(the title of this thread)?
ReplyDeleteI fail to see any connection at all.
http://home.comcast.net/~truthsucks/why_i_dont_believe_in_god.html
ReplyDeleteI'm not even touching the racoons thing, but it made me laugh.
ReplyDeleteLets say theoretically one of those sick raccoons just bit a friend of mine.
ReplyDeleteIs this bad?
Someone posted something from hawking, more atheist propaganda. Im going to leave it cause i believe in freedom of speech. how many sites that espouse atheism would let me post something on theirs ? probably not many.
ReplyDeletethe raccoon thing > : if a wild animal bites anyone it could be bad, that person should go to a doctor and have it checked out. I dont think it matters if the animal appears sick or not really.
The string was hijacked ... happens sometimes ...
@Amy - "I have close family ancestory to indians, and I'm not angry with anyone. I do not feel repressed or angry for what anyone did to my ancestors." The point is not what someone did to your ancestors... It is about the effects of the attrocoties comitted against them which are still going on today. Whites and minorities do not have the same opportunities to succede. We have made great strides, but we are not equal. There is status, power, privlege that is attached to our whiteness. This cannot be denied. All I'm saying is that we acknowledge this, apologize for the sins of our past, and go forward with a new understanding...
ReplyDeleteWhites and minorities do not have the same opportunities to succede. We have made great strides, but we are not equal.
ReplyDeleteWhen people like Bill Cosby say to the present Black Culture. "This is not what Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King had in mind for the Black Race in America."
Who is choosing to follow their path?
All I'm saying is that we acknowledge this, apologize for the sins of our past, and go forward with a new understanding...
ReplyDelete----------------------------------------------
I'm sorry, but I did not sin or do anything in my past to repress black people and never would. I do not need to apologize and I think most black people would agree with me. There are some that like to be victims still - but not all of them.
I think that is a ridiculous argument.
Whites and minorities do not have the same opportunities to succede. We have made great strides, but we are not equal.
ReplyDelete--------------------------------------------
Have you ever heard Bill Cosby's 'We can't blame the white people any longer'?
Not everyone feels the same way as you do. Some are ready to move on and trying. Our society never will be able to move past racism as long as we continue to have labels.
I dont feel any responsibility for slavery or repression. I was not involved, so i don't need to personally apologize.
ReplyDeleteBut, I think it is a good thing for institutions to do, as a way of saying they are changing direction and doing the right thing.
So i dont feel guilty, but I do have a responsibility to my fellow man - and that knows no color or sex.
Bill Cosby's Address at the NAACP' on the 50th Anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education
ReplyDeletehttp://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/billcosbypoundcakespeech.htm
I think this speech is relevant for all everyone.
I read the atheist link. It wasn't Hawking. It just had a quote from Hawking. Made me think. No saying I'm gonna become an atheist right now, but it made me think. I will look into it some more and decide what to believe.
ReplyDeleteMan oh man.... ya'll can sure burn the wires. Talk about a bunch of nothing.
ReplyDeleteJJ I'm sure you enjoy this tripe.
Let's move past the stupidity of the posts that had nothing to do with the blog topic anyway.
Have fun.... I thought the racism thing was something from a few years back.... but I'm sure that it's rampant here in good ole' AC.
maybe we need some good coon hunters???
ReplyDelete"Let's move past the stupidity of the posts that had nothing to do with the blog topic anyway."
ReplyDeleteYes, by all means, let's discuss sick racoons. Why don't you get us started oh wise one.
I read the "atheist" post as well. Interesting read. Not something to be dismissed lightly. Might even be something people want to debate here, or in another forum. Anyone who is sure in their faith ought to be willing to explore and defend it don't you think. It certainly is nothing to be afraid of...
ReplyDelete9:05,
ReplyDeleteIt does have some good points. I have always been open to being proved wrong in my beliefs. That's how scientific method works. Christians on the other hand have to make everything fit what they believe, and are unwilling to consider evidence that does not go along with what the bible says. That's why many still consider the earth to be six thousand years old, and the grand canyon was made in one day by a huge flood. Stuff that no rational person could possibly believe. But if you prove part of the bible is wrong, then that leaves open the possibility that it is all made up by man, and they just can't have that. it would make their entire life meaningless. And, they would have to admit that they had been played for fools. So they twist all kinds of tales to try to make it fit. It's kinda fun and pathetic at the same time. Go back and read some of JJ's posts where he argues with one of the rational people on here. It's pretty entertaining.
Yes i presented evidence for faith, rationale for faith, and refuted his arguments and was called a narrow minded fool for doing so.
ReplyDeletei showed evidence, but the person said that was no evidence ... what kind of debate is that.
I am willing to defend my faith
it is very rational, reasonable, thought out and studied.
My point on this post is that, athiests wouldnt allow the same thing to be posetd on their site.
I think from this point i will just delete that kind of thing.
I remember that earlier debate.
If anyone wants to meet with me personally, ill talk about rational faith with them..
i would just encourage people to look at all sides of things. to think rationally. to not just read one side.
Hey wait - why does the 5:30 post get in, but mine was censored? It was essentially the same post, albeit funnier in the delivery.
ReplyDeleteThought you were gonna lay off the meaningless political discussions. You are baited with an anti-Obama post, thinly veiled as a race-type question, and here we go.
Then we spin into people actually arguing against the existence of God - where did the Conservatives go? C'mon far right - this is your milieu. Show these atheist what you're made of. It's too bad you can't be as passionate about God as you are about your disdain for a political party.
10:11 Some would say the same things about arguments like - cyanobacteria became walking fish which became marmosets which became apes which became humans. We have an unmatched skull fragment and thighbone from two different species, named australopithecus, which proves it.
I posted evidence, which was dismissed. Atheists dismiss evidence, they refuse to look at it.
ReplyDeleteThen they say there is no evidence.
I can engage in a serious discussion, but i am not going to cast pearls before swine.
There is evidence - apart from the bible = that Jesus existed and that people who knew him said he rose from the dead. There is evidence that the New Testament was written before 100 a.d., and its accuracy is very good.
As far as evidence for God .. there is plenty
Paschal's wager (french philosopher) that if there is no god, and we all die, we wont know or care.
if there is, then those that scoffed will be in a world of hurt.
I can prove a reasonable case for God.
You cannot disprove it.
Evolution is also based on faith. it does not prove or disprove God. It just invents a way to explain away God. But there are still many holes and missing links in evoution... takes more faith to believe everything just popped into existence at random over millions of years than to believe in God.
But i dont want to get into name calling .. and allow the blog to be used for atheist propaganda.
so .... if you want a serious discussion of evidence, email me.
Matt 13: 36-43
ReplyDeleteJesus Explains the Parable of the Weeds
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of man will send out his angels, and they will weed out his kingdom everthing that causes sin an all who do evil. They will throw them into the firey furnace, where there will be weeping and knashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
I stand amazed.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that there is a place for the discussion of religion. I'm just unsure why it took over the post on the sick raccoons.
I think, JJ, you are 'moved' a little to easy. A man of faith, should not be swayed so easily. I mean, could you not have just started another blog. (use some wit man) What your blog site is becoming..... a 'bunch of rambling'.
Oh well..... JJ... me thinks you love sowing discord. You take every opportunity to create confusion.
JJ
ReplyDeletemaybe you should do a live blog once a week for discussions? Not just Commission meetings. Like Newscow does?
I'm not sure why some people have to be so rude though.
Some people have little control over their lives, so being rude gives them at least a false sense of power. If they can do it anonymously, that gives them the illusion of even more power, so it just pampers their egos to be rude. Its just insecurity.
ReplyDeleteI say this anonymously just for the sense of irony...
4:11
ReplyDeleteGood idea, but it will turn into a conversation between 5 buddies about bars, restaurants and 'secret' breaking news stories. I've suffered through a couple of them.
A little doubt and honest questioning is good for faith. In fact, we cannot have faith without it.
ReplyDeleteWe are called to believe in that which is not logical. That which seems unbelievable. Were it not so, it would not be faith, it would be certain knowing. Certainty on either end of the spectrum is a dangerous thing. We are called to live in the tension between atheism, and certainty.
About the Bible. I do not believe it to be literal. I do not believe every word to be true. I believe God does reveal God's character to us in numerous ways. We attempt to put that into words, and form scripture. Sometimes we get it right and it is beautiful. Other times we get it very wrong, and it is a very dangerous thing. I believe we need to hold all scripture up to what we know innately to be true of the character of God. A God of love. Grace, mercy, forgiveness. A God of new beginnings and second chances...
So, do I believe the Bible is inspired, yes. Do I believe it to be true, no. Do I believe it contains truths, that it uses metaphor to teach truths about God's nature, absolutely.
I also believe truth can be found in many of the world's religions. We need to stop looking for that which divides, and come together with that which unites us. Most all of the world's religions contain the "Golden Rule," or the "Law of Reciprocity." "Love God, Love neighbor." "Do unto others that which you would have done unto you." We are far more alike than we are different. I think even an atheist could agree to love one another....
We need to realize too, that the scriptures were written thousands of years ago in a specific time and place, from and to a specific culture.
ReplyDeleteWe need to understand what it meant to the original writer and to the original readers in their cultural context.
The problem i see a lot, in modern day american culture, is that we want to interpret it in light of modern american culture, and that leads to some really wrong beliefs.
There is also a danger of the bible becoming a "god" .. the bible is not God, it is not even the "word" of God. it is a book containing the words OF God, - that is a huge difference -
I do believe it to be the inspired word of God .. but only in the original languages. Translations are very good, im not criticizing them - just saying the original languages are inspired. any translation involves some interpretation, so there is that layer.
It is also true .. but you have to define even what "true" means.
I really dont think it even matters if it is historically accurate - though i think it is in general pretty close .
the purpose of the scriptures is not to tell us about history, or science, or math, or geometry.
The purpose of the bible is to tell us how to have a relationship with God.
THAT is the stumbling point.
There is a rather obscure verse. the Pharisees were on Jesus case and arguing with him.
he told them ...
You study the scriptures because you think in them you find eternal life, but you wont come to me to have real eternal life.
Thats a real lose paraphrase .. but its significant.
As it is writ - you must be born again.
The thing is .. a relationship with God is not about you - its not about me - its about God.
that is the bottom line problem most people have.
as Paul wrote.
a stumbling block to the greeks and foolishness to the jews.
Oh i got that last part backwards.
ReplyDeleteA stumbling block to jews and foolishness to greeks.
just for the sake of having it correct.
"the Pharisees were on Jesus case and arguing with him.
ReplyDeletehe told them ...
You study the scriptures because you think in them you find eternal life, but you wont come to me to have real eternal life."
so, what scriptures was he talking about? Since the bible wasn't written until after he died?
The Old Testament.
ReplyDeleteThat is what is meant by understanding it in its historical context. The scriptures to them meant the old testament, to us it means the old and the new.
Thanks for clarifying that.
ReplyDeleteI think there is an awful lot of "Bible Worship," going on. You are correct to say this is not the "Word" of God. Scripture is an arrow pointing to the true Word, Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteOf course, I think there is probably too much Christ worship as well. Christ also is an arrow, a "Way'" if you will, pointing to the God who sent him as an example of what it meant to live a Godly life.
I think Jesus would agree with that. I don't think he ever demanded worship or idolatry. Rather he always defered to his Father who sent him.
He did defer to the father.
ReplyDeleteBut Jesus was - is God in the flesh.
You cant have too much Christ worship. He did say "I AM the way, the truth and the life."
The reason he was crucified was that he claimed to be God.
The reason it matters, is that he WAS God.
I think it is significant that in the Old Testament God lead his people through Great Leaders! Moses, David and others!
ReplyDeleteBut, in the New Testament, God still uses the leaders, but the goal was changed IMHO!
He wants to lead and guide us as individuals!
He can do more through many than He can through just a few!
AND
His invitation was/is open to ALL!
While many still wait on HIM?
He is waiting on US!
Also in the New Testament God did not require the people to worship him with sacrifices like in the Old Testament!
ReplyDeleteJesus stripped away all the Old and replaced it with NEW!
That is His message and vision for YOU!
@April 15, 2010 2:43 PM- "Also in the New Testament God did not require the people to worship him with sacrifices like in the Old Testament!
ReplyDeleteJesus stripped away all the Old and replaced it with NEW!
That is His message and vision for YOU!"
Exactly, which is why I say perhaps we worship Christ too much. I think we honor and worship God with the way we live our lives in loving service to one another. Far more pleasing to God would be an hour of service on Sunday morning instead of an hour of vain and empty "hallelujahs," or "thank you Jesus's." I would love to have a pastor say, "next Sunday we are not going to have church, instead bring your hammers and we are going to fix Mabels roof." I think that would be much more pleasing to God. As far as Jesus. I think too many people think that they are "saved," because they have "believed in their heart" or "confessed with their mouths;" yet there is no change in their actions, or their behavior toward their fellow man.
I think it is far more important to be a follower of the way of jesus, rather than a worshiper of the person or deity of Jesus. What does the Lord require of you, but to DO justice, LOVE mercy, and WALK humbly with God.
It is about following the Way....
confessed the name of Jesus.
There has been a rise in the Charasmatic movement in the U.S. and around the World!
ReplyDeleteEspecially among the youth!
I remember one older memeber of a congregation that went ballisitic when people lit candles in the Sanctuary!
Working on "someone in needs" house is not a bad mission and could be done during the week or on Saturdays!
But Sunday is a day of rest!
AND
Whether you need it or not! I do!
@4:46
ReplyDeleteAmen, Amen!
JJ, maybe you should find a pulpit. Your not showing much as a "news media source"
ReplyDelete@4:46
ReplyDeleteWhether I need what or not?
If you are talking about church, I am right there with you. I need it as well. We all need to be in community with like minded believers. It is in community that I believe we experience experience communion with God. Also, I do not believe there is anything wrong with gathering to give thanks and praise to God. I'm just not sure that should be our primary focus. When we do that, we become to inward focused, the church becomes self-serving, and we neglect the greater world which we were called to transform by being agents of God's grace and mercy. Love of others I believe, is what is most pleasing to God.
@ 4:46 "But Sunday is a day of rest!"
ReplyDeleteOur Sabbath rest does not relieve us of our obligation to help those in need.
And He said to them, "Which one of you will have a son or an ox fall into a well, and will not immediately pull him out on a Sabbath day?"
Luke 14:5
"The Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Doesn't each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water?"
Luke 14:13
Its not an either or thing. Faith without works is dead, works without faith is not faith at all.
ReplyDeleteThere needs to be both.
Lots of churches are doing quiet a bit to help people in need.
Our Sabbath rest does not relieve us of our obligation to help those in need.
ReplyDeleteWell you have a good point!
Sunday isn't always a day of rest for everyone either!
I know people who live in big cities and belong to Mega Churches! They have Services which accomodate people who can't attend on Sunday! (One member I know is a airline pilot for one of the Majors and attends during the week!) Then on Sunday they have mutiple services and some for even different Ages and Cultures!
They are so big that there is hardly a time that something isn't going so that all can be included!
But, its the people doing it not the just the Staff!
In fact in one of those Churches it is the Ministers Goal to support the peoples involvment and not try to direct the Church by his own plan or views!
He does ,however, not stray from his message!
On Easter they had something like 10 Services and he preached them all!
But, then they have a congregation almost the size of A.C.!
So Jesus and god are the same person? I thought Jesus was the son of god, not god himself. So when Jesus said on the cross "Father, why hast thou forsaken me"? he was talking to himself? Well, that makes perfect sense. I guess anyone who would believe that half of the stuff that happened in the bible was is historical fact will believe anything.
ReplyDeleteWell, that makes perfect sense.
ReplyDeleteEver heard of the Trinity?
@ April 15, 2010 9:59 PM
ReplyDelete"Well, that makes perfect sense.
Ever heard of the Trinity?"
Actually the word Trinity is found nowhere in the Bible.
There was considerable debate within the early church about the concept, and it was not until the Council of Nicea under Emperor Constantine that an "official" understanding of the Trinity was adopted. Thus it was the State imposing doctrine upon the church. Constantine by the way was a recent convert to Christianity, and carried the cross of Christ as a standard into war, claiming Christ as conqueror in his bloody battles. Constantine wavered between paganism and Christianity, had no theological training, and wasn't baptized until he was on his death bed. Constantine did however have an army to back him up, so; the Trinity it was.
This "official" understanding also flip-flopped several times depending on who was in charge at the time.
Many early Christians did not consider themselves to be "Trinitarian." This it would seem was a Roman invention.
JJ - "Its not an either or thing. Faith without works is dead, works without faith is not faith at all."
ReplyDeleteI would go further. Faith by itself is nothing.
Works without faith is better than faith alone.
If you truly have faith, it will show by your works.
The good Samaritan was not a believer, yet he was commended for his works, while believers were chastised for their lack of action.
Many will cry out "Father, Father, and I will say to them - depart from me, I never knew you."
It is not enough to say you believe. You must act like you believe.
@April 15, 2010 6:12 - "JJ, maybe you should find a pulpit. Your not showing much as a "news media source"
ReplyDeleteNot sure I ever read where JJ claimed to be a "news media source."
From his banner above "We will jump into other subjects that we find interesting,... The blog is for the community, so I will try to be responsive to reader interests."
10:29. . it is writ, that without faith it is impossible to please god. works without faith are more of a benefit to others, but from a spiritual standpoint, works without faith are of no value.
ReplyDeleteThis has been about the wildest thread i can remember.
Now we are talking the trinity.
I really dont think it was a roman imposition on the early christians. Constantine gets way to much credit for too many things.
That Jesus was God in the flesh was a point of contention while jesus was alive. that is why they killed him.
Wonder what this thread can move to tomorrow?
we shall see i guess.
Wonder what this thread can move to tomorrow?
ReplyDeletewe shall see i guess.
who knows? this is kind like a virtual coffee shop or barber shop. nice place to hang your hat & solve the world's problems. Long way from raccoons, but who cares...
So....DON'T play with sickly raccoons?? I thought this was a city commission thread.
ReplyDeleteJJ,
ReplyDeleteThis is long, and somewhat rambling, but I would like your honest response.
I grew up Christian.
Spent 1/2 my life Catholic, the other half working my way through several mainstream Protestant denominations. I am currently in one of those denominations, attending seminary, and pastoring a small church. I struggle with my faith, but I believe all of us are called to struggle with it, and those that don't aren't being honest. I believe in a God who created the universe, both the seen and the unseen. I believe God is love. Not full of love, not loving, but love. I believe God created us and the universe for our enjoyment. God is not ego-centric, or a narcissist. God does not sit around all day waiting for our adulations, as if God somehow needed them. God is God. God "needs" nothing from us. I believe God desires a thankful heart, and a life of sacrificial living. God gave us free will in so that we could be fully human.
With our free will comes the power to choose. To choose between good and evil, life and death; we have the power to build up, or to tear down. Certainly, God wishes for us to choose life. To do the loving thing. Too often we do not. That is why God sent us Jesus. To model for us how to be in relationship with God, and with each other. Jesus lived amongst us, full of grace and truth. He was merciful, compassionate, forgiving, and we killed him. Rather than forsake us, or condemn us, God said "I still love you. I forgive you." Our sins were forgiven before we were born. Our sins were forgiven "while we were yet sinners." That is what is so remarkable about our faith. We serve a God who watched us brutally murder his son, and loves us anyways. That is the love, the grace, the mercy, the forgiveness we are called to live into. Is it easy? Will any of us ever truly live into it? Not likely. But that does not mean we do not try. The Didache, one of the oldest known Christian writings (written well before the New Testament) says “If you are able to bear the entire yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect. But if you are not able, then at least do what you can.” (chapter 6)
We as Christians have gotten caught up in this lie that we must have it all figured out, that we must be perfect, that there is one set of beliefs that leads to salvation. Far from it. Paul, in his letter to Philippians tells us to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Anyone who is not, is not being true to their faith. So, I am not certain Jesus was divine, in our understanding of that word, although I believe to encounter Jesus was to encounter God. In the same way, people should know they have been in the presence of God each time they have an encounter with us. (No, that does not make us God.)
I am not certain I believe in the bodily resurrection, although Jesus certainly impacted the world, and continues to live on in the hearts and actions of his followers. Indeed we are called to be Christ for each other. I believe God has given us free will. Therefore, I believe God has promised not to intervene in our lives. We must live with the consequences of our actions. That means I do not really believe in intercessory prayer. I do however believe we are called to bring ourselves in line with the will of God, and to be co-laborers with God in bringing about a new creation. It is both an awesome privilege, and an enormous responsibility. It is a task that cannot be undertaken without prayer, for it is only through prayer that we can know the mind of God and God'a will for our lives. So, I take being a Christian, or a "Follower of the Way of Christ" very seriously. I have tried to follow what Jesus called the greatest commandment very seriously. I love God with all my heart, mind, soul, strength. And I try to love my neighbor as myself. I may be wrong about all of this, but I am earnestly seeking the truth.
All of that being said, where do you think I stand with regards to my salvation?
All of that being said, where do you think I stand with regards to my salvation?
ReplyDelete>
Well I am not the judge of someone else's servant. I really dont think we should be in the business of having judgements concerning someone elses relationship with God.
But, since you asked :)
I understand about doubts about things, and questions. I think these are good things. We grow as we struggle with the great questions. If it were easy it would be boring.
But one point .. Paul wrote that if Christ is not risen, we are most miserable because we have no future and we are still in our sin.
Christ being God, dead and raised for the remission of sins, is the essence of Christianity. If you dont have that, you are not really Christian.
To me, that is the only point of the entirety of Christianity that is non negotiable.
So I would just say to pray and God will reveal the truth to those that seek him.
There are different schools of thought, and we all have different personalities, gifts, abilities and different ways of relating to God.
I really relate more to God when I am out in the woods by myself. An hour in the woods is better than 2 hours in church. Some people would say just the opposite.
Both are ok.
I agree with a lot of your post. It is good to choose the right thing, to do the right thing, to try to please God.
But at one point in the scriptures, it says the work of God is to believe in the one he sent (Jesus).
What God wants us to do is to accept the gift he offers us, which is forgiveness of our sins. He wants us to trust in him.
The stuff we do - good works - should be a result of that.
Send me an email if you want to talk about this further. :)
. That is why God sent us Jesus. To model for us how to be in relationship with God, and with each other.
ReplyDelete>>
Just one more point about the above post.
I have heard this a lot, but I really do not agree. Jesus did not come to give us an example - thought he did.
He did not come to reveal god to us - though he did that too.
he came to die for our sins. that was his primary mission. His purpose in coming to earth was to die on the cross. and to be resurrected.
so that we could have spiritual life.
Didn't he also come to make salvation and fogiveness of their Sins available for ALL!
ReplyDeleteEven those who the Jews didn't think were capable of being included in God's Kingdom?
He made it clear how to get to Heaven!
He made it possible to get to heaven.
ReplyDeleteEven in the old testament, they were looking forward to the day of Christ. Today we look back to that day.
There were many things he did.
But the primary thing was his death and resurrection.
As far back as Genesis ... Abraham believed - and it was credited to him as righteousness.
@JJ - "What God wants us to do is to accept the gift he offers us, which is forgiveness of our sins. He wants us to trust in him.
ReplyDeleteThe stuff we do - good works - should be a result of that."
Couldn't agree more. I do believe in the forgiveness God has offered me. I trust in God to order and guide my life.
I am just not certain Christ's death on the cross was necessary for God to offer me that forgiveness. I do not believe we serve a blood thirsty God who can only be satiated by violence and murder. It does not make sense that a God who is love, who tells us to love one another, who tells us to forgive not 7x, but 70x7, who tells us to turn the other check, and not return violence for violence, would look down from heaven at our inhumanity toward each other, and say, "I will send my son to be brutally murdered by them, and then I can forgive them." Couldn't God forgive us, just because God loves us, and wants us to have life abundant? Didn't the father run to the prodigal son, embrace him, kiss him, and forgive him before he ever asked for it? Isn't it the way of the world to demand vengence. God's ways are not our ways. God hears the world clamoring for vengence, and instead offers forgiveness, healing, wholeness, new life, second chances, new beginings...
Why is that so difficult for us to understand?
Radical forgiveness, in the face of everything that calls for the contrary, is what I believe we are called to.
We can argue all day about what Paul wrote, and what he meant. We can argue about whether it was inspired, or a human mind and perspective trying to make sense of what the early Christian church witnessed and experienced. Truth is, it was written a generation removed from actual events, and with each retelling, it was changed just a bit...
Scripture also tellls us that God said, "I will write my laws upon their hearts." And that people will no longer have to teach each other saying, "Know the Lord," for all will know him.
I think we need to look into our hearts, and trust what we inatly know to be true anout the nature of the God we serve.
I think we need to look into our hearts, and trust what we inatly know to be true anout the nature of the God we serve.
ReplyDelete>>>
It is writ, the heart is deceitful above all else, who can know it?
I really think it is dangerous to just go with what your innate knowledge tells you, because it can be really wrong. That is how cults get started - think Jim Jones, Waco etc., .. Hitler was sure he was right about killing all the jews...
The bible tells us what God thinks. That should over rule what our internal voices say.
What if there was a certain sin that I really did not think was wrong .. what if I just could not understand why it was wrong (insert anything here) .. but the bible says it is wrong, every one i know says it is wrong, .. what should i believe?
JJ,
ReplyDeleteThat is where you and I differ. I believe the Bible tells us what people over history have understood God to think. Not "what God thinks."
Sometimes we have gotten it right, often we have been very wrong. I believe what we really must ask ourselves is this, "Is this edifying? Is this constructive? Is this beneficial?" Paul in his 1st letter to the Corinthians writes, ""Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.""
What we must ask with all of our behavior is, "Does this glorify God?" Does this build up my neighbor, and my community of faith?
Christianity is not meant to be a legal system of rules, that is one of the things Christ came to get us away from. I respect your opinion, and thank you for your candor, but I do believe that if I believe in and love God the creator. If I love neighbor as self. If I strive to glorify God, and build up my neighbor in everything I do. If I believe that we are saved for eternity because God loves us, and If I believe Christ is risen and remembered everytime one of his believers acts in a Christlike way for their fellow man, and in that is our salvation here on earth, and that I act this way in response to Gos's love for me, and his free gift of eternal life, then I am comfortable calling myself a Christian.
There are theological differences.
ReplyDeleteThe cool thing is, there's no theology exam to get into heaven.
People have been debating this for thousands of years - the nature of God, the nature of Christ -
Its cool to not have the same beliefs.
Amen. I think this is why there is no clear cut answer in scriptue, and stories which seem to "conflict" with each other. We are meant to wrestle with the text, and live within that tension. It is the only way to make make our faith our own.
ReplyDelete"It is good to choose the right thing, to do the right thing, to try to please God."
ReplyDeleteSee, I do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because I worry that some god will send me to hell if I don't. It's called morals.
@April 17, 2010 11:11 AM -
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm with you there as well. While I believe there is a God who sets the standard of morality, of good and bad, right and wrong, I do not believe in Hell however, and believe scripture is almost silent with regard to it.
See, I do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because I worry that some god will send me to hell if I don't. It's called morals
ReplyDeleteThats exactly the attitude the Pharisees had in the Bible? They were responsible to see that no laws were broken and to adminsiter punishment!
Jesus rebuked them for their interpretations and abuse of power!
He also made it where even those who had done wrong (knowingly or unknowingly) could be accepted into His Father's Kingdom!
The two thieves on the crosses beside him were given that same opportunity!
Now just as then its about Choice!
But, I wouldn't want to bet my Salvation on just being a good or moral person!
Found this quote while doing some reading this morning...
ReplyDelete"I seek compassion in every form and for any reason. If a soup kitchen has standing within it, side by side, a Christian, an Atheist, a Buddhist and a Humanist, it is the feeding of those in need which pleases the limitless divine, not their labels. Whether they know it or not, or care or not, they are all emulating Christ, perhaps more so than most mainstream churches!"
This was posted on the Progressive Christian Alliance website.
The post advocates tolerance, but then in its last sentence, passes judgment on main stream churches. So it does not do what it seems to imply others should do.
ReplyDeleteI understand this type thinking. Very eastern, very budhist type thinking.
To me, this type thinking trivializes all religions.
Yes, they all do good, even the non religious can do good. that does not make them all right.
Actually, in the main stream church, people who are doing good, and worshiping God. ARE emulating Christ more because they are putting focus on God and not on themselves.
Everyone cannot be right. And that is Ok. We cannot have different beliefs and have all those beliefs be correct. We can accept each other as people, and we can all do good, but that cannot make us all equally correct.
I would rather have the differences and let some be more right than others.
If one says all are correct - isnt that just another way of saying none of them matter?
Matthew 7: 13-14
ReplyDeleteJesus Teaches about the Way to Heaven
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
JJ,
ReplyDeleteYes, there are many mainstream churches that are doing good. But MANY are not. Were they, our churches would be filled to overflowing.
Many of our churches are self-serving, intolerant, and far off the mark, looking nothing like the community of faith Jesus intended. Even within "Christianity" we all cannot be correct. But can any of us really understand that which cannot be understood? I think Christianity has done more to hurt the cause of Christ than any "atheist." And yes, as I said earlier, I am a Christian.