A story is circulating on some conservative news sites and blogs about how a Canadian provincial premier - would be like a state governor here - went to Miami, Fla., for heart surgery instead of having it in Canada.
Opponents of health care reform are jumping on this hard. Here is a link.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584816,00.html
There are two things about this that I would like to talk about.
One is that it is not getting much mainstream media attention. Even Fox News isn't jumping on it too much, so there must be more to the story. I do think it is somewhat of a scandal that the "liberal" media has not covered it at all. I did a google search on CNN, NYT and LA Times, and there was nothing. not a word. I couldn't find it on the AP either. But that Fox isn't really jumping on it either is strange. Must be more to the story.
My second point is that I dont see how it can be used as a case against health care reform. The health system in the U.S. is the best in the world. How does making medical care more affordable to more people make it not the best?
The point of health care reform is to make it more available, more affordable, to more people.
If we have the best health care - and we do - what good is it if it is only available to the very wealthy?
We are also the richest nation in the world. I don't see how we can ethically not take care of poor people. Health care should be available to every person. If we cannot do that then we dont have the best.
To use a Canadian getting health care in the U>S> as an argument against health care for poor people is apples and oranges at best.
How does making medical care more affordable to more people make it not the best?
ReplyDeleteBecause under a Government led plan you will let/make them (Government) through economic means determine who gets what type of care!
I also takes away the persons right to choose and any benefits acquired through individuals efforts!
Not only in terms of what they spend and where but where they get the money to do it!
Its already there if you want to look in the right places!
AND
Its not working!
Btw: If you read the article you mentioned it stated that it was his chioce about his health!
That the procedure did not require the breaking of bones as would have been done by the surgeons
in Canada. It was done by a specialist who had performed those type surgeries thousands of times!
He wouldn't have that same choice in Canada!
One of the reasons this is a big deal is because if he would have had to wait in his country, it would have taken a long time before he could have got his surgery. He obviously is wealthy and could afford to come here and pay for the surgery himself. So how does that differ from what we have now? If the wealthy in Canada still have access to the best care in the world?
ReplyDeleteIf this story isn't getting alot of play, because it isn't a new story. It happens all the time.
I'm far from wealthy and I have health insurance.
First off, this country can NOT afford any more debt! For them to say this bill will actually lower the deficit is insane!! How do you spend 1 trillion dollars and lower the deficit? And if the are cutting Medicare, where does that leave our seniors?
ReplyDeleteI don't work hard every day so all my money can go to the government. We can't keep raising taxes! Are you for raising taxes?
How about all those who voted for Obama can pay more in taxes?
ReplyDeleteI'm tired of politics playing a roll in taxes, the founding fathers did not have this in mind!
Because under a Government led plan you will let/make them (Government) through economic means determine who gets what type of care!
ReplyDelete>>
This is as opposed to profit driven insurance companies and medical facilities deciding through economic means.
Which is worse?
The answer is in finding ways to allow indivduals to acquire those benefits through their own efforts and then educating them to be rsponsible for their decisions!
ReplyDeleteKind of hard to do when its easier to stay on the Public Safety Net!
AND
The overall trend in our Society is to be Greedy at the expense of the rest! Buy cheap,
buy all we can and support comapanies who's goals are to increase their Share Prices and dividends first!
While they rob the values out of our exisitng infrastructure through new expansion and growth with the aid of Public Funds or move to less expensive markets!
Sweet!
Btw: You can blame those companies but its you that is forcing them to do that! As shareholders and consumers! Plus a Government that wants to expand its control and redistribute wealth!
jj said: "How does making medical care more affordable to more people make it not the best?"
ReplyDelete------------------
Because once you dillute it to the point of Doctors getting paid less, Clinics getting filled to overflowing, rationing of supplies and resources, and lack of research and devolopment... all of which will come from the reduced fees and reduced wages for medical staff, it will no longer be the best. It will be the same as what Canada has. Then where will people go? They will die.
anonymous @ 9:19 said: "This is as opposed to profit driven insurance companies and medical facilities deciding through economic means.
Which is worse?"
---------------------
Do you know what the average profit margin for health insurance companies is?? 3.3%!!!!
WOW, They are really screwing us, aren't they!
"...where does that leave our seniors?" Answer: on a raft in the middle of the Atlantic in winter. Too bad, lots of seniors voted for Prs. Obama. They had no clue.
ReplyDeleteI dont believe for a second that insurance companies are only making 3.3 percent profit.
ReplyDeleteI would have to see some evidence.
I still dont understand why people are against everyone having health care. That to me is the problem.
Maybe because you want to take all MY money to pay for it?
ReplyDelete@4:08 p.m. ditto! jj if you want everyone to have health insurance, fine. Just do it on your own dime. I work hard. Seems to me, I should be able to decide what I want to do with my money. Not the gov't. What's not mentioned out loud in this debate is the price the illegal's add to the tab. Ask anyone in CA who will be honest, it has just about sunk the state. i.e., schools, welfare, hospitals, etc.
ReplyDeletejj said: "I dont believe for a second that insurance companies are only making 3.3 percent profit."
ReplyDeleteThen look it up. But I can save you some time, because this guy already did
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/08/health-insurance-industry-ranks-86-by.html
and here is a breakdown of the HR3200 healthcare bill
ReplyDeletehttp://www.classicalideals.com/HR3200.htm
@9:01pm " jj if you want everyone to have health insurance, fine. Just do it on your own dime."
ReplyDeleteIt already is on your dime. We all pay the cost of increased premiums, and higher taxes to pay for care for the uninsured. Why not have as many people as we can pay into the system at a lower rate, streamline the process, and make it more efficient and cost effective? My employer paid almost 14,000 dollars last year for my health insurance, and I still have to pay 400 plus per month in premiums, copays, 15-50 dollars per prescription, and 20% on hospitalization. It is too much....
Hey, I hear you. I hear you loud & clear. I posted your quote. I admit, there is a lot of insanity to the whole machine. However, I don't think forcing the working stiffs (you & me) to finance & provide for the rest who don't is the right way to go. It destroys my incentive to produce. (Just my opinion) It didn't work for Stalin, Mousilinni(sp), China, and we only need to look a few miles south (Cuba) for a shining example of government run failure. You know, I wonder how folks made it 300 years ago without a government to take care of them? Well, my answer is they took care of themselves. They helped each other. Families pitched in. Oh well, that was a long time ago. Looks like we have very few caring families today. Just a few rambling thoughts. It may come back to that, people having to help each other. Learning how to plant a garden, can their own veggies, raise a chicken or two. (If you don't think it can, ask one of the elderly folks at the local rest home. It can)
ReplyDeleteThese are the same arguments that were once used against public education.
ReplyDeleteJust because government provides a service, does not mean you are now a communist or socialist state. No more than one person being arrested means the police are arresting everyone and there is martial law.
I remember reading newspaper editorials from the late 1800s. saying things like the idea of public education was unfair because it taxed those that could afford it and was providing something that was not needed.
It was also seen a unfair to farmers, who were being forced to send their kids off to school when they were needed to help work on the farm.
But JJ,
ReplyDeleteIn a Capitalistic Society once something grows to the point it is no longer efficient, cost effective or even manageable.
It gets broken up into smaller units, downsized/reorganized or replaced altogether!
It might happen as the result of factors including an advancing society and more modern technology!
That could include Industry, Business, Services or even Government Programs!
Its when we continue to support those things through manipulation that the process FAILS!
You really only have to LOOK NOW of all times to see that trend and the desire to keep Failed Business Models, Social Policies, Government Programs and Politics in place through some type of manipulation!
Just look at the Banking Industry, Auto Industry, Social Security/medicare, Welfare/ medicaid, and on and on .......!
Competiton/Accountability/Creativity should be the Great Equalizer not Government!
Btw: I do agree with Social Programs that help prople or protect those who don't have the same abilities or opportunities!
I just don't believe in the abuse of them by people who want to see them grow unecessarily.
Competiton/Accountability/Creativity should be the Great Equalizer not Government!
ReplyDelete>
I think there is the problem.
You are still seeing government as something "other" or "out there"
We ARE the government. Government isnt necessarily evil, no more than private business is necessarily evil.
Government is just people like we are just people etc.
Government needs to be competitive, accountable and creative.
Government is just people like we are just people etc.
ReplyDeleteWho no doubt want to make the decisions for YOU!
lets see 3.3% of 10,000,000 dollars . hummm i'd sure like to have some of that. (that's just a figure out of my hat but it could be a good figure). d. sounds good anyways as for illegals i'd like to see figures on just how muchk of our tax dollars are being spent oon school health care, etc. on the kids.
ReplyDeletespeaking of illegals, newscow has a story about the ACPD finding a house full of them and they were making fake IDs. Nine or more were illegal, yet less than half were taken by ICE.
ReplyDeleteI bet Creekstone will be hiring monday if anyone needs a job. $5 and hour and all the burritos you can eat.
Interesting take on the Health Care debate.
ReplyDeleteBe warned, it does have some abrasive language.
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=325394168850&id=646178105&ref=mf
For those who don't have a fb account and can't view the above link.
ReplyDelete"The sick and sad truth of the matter is that Jesus of Nazareth, the one the majority of us American citizens claim to follow, would not be able to afford health care in this country. Jesus would also be one of those we give "the finger" to regarding health care. As we can plainly see in the Christian scriptures, Jesus was born into poverty and died in poverty. Was it not he who proclaimed that he didn't even have a place to lay his head?
Jesus commands us to do unto others as we would have them do for us. Would we want someone to care for us when we were down and out or would we want them to ignore our needs? How would we feel if someone who had the power to help told us that they couldn't care less about our needs or our health? I can honestly tell you that when a friend or aquaintance tells me that regardless of my wife's condition they don't want health care to change, it breaks my heart and angers me at the same time.
Further more, Jesus tells us that whatever we do for the least, the last, the lost, the left out, and the broken in this world, we do for him. That means that whenever you look into the eyes of the poor and impoverished in this world, you should see Jesus looking right back at you. Can we really tell Jesus to "f**k off" and to "stop being a leech on society and get your own health care"?
Something to think about."
good post
ReplyDeleteJesus was pretty clear on this.
when we dont help others - the poor - we are refusing to help him.
when we do ... we do for him.
thats why you dont have to worry about helping someone who doesnt deserve it, youre not really doing it for them.
or as i heard someone say... jesus said to help the poor, he never said help the poor who deserve help.
Jesus was pretty clear on this.
ReplyDeletewhen we dont help others - the poor - we are refusing to help him.
I don't think Jesus was referring to the use of Government when he was telling us to care for each other including the POOR!
Especially, a Government that does not want to recognize him or his morals and teachings!
You can continue to bend reality to meet your own needs or try to convince others.
But, Jesus can't work through Government - he only works through individuals!
In fact when you bond together with those who do not believe through Government Policies! You simply restrict or eliminate His ability to use YOU!
JJ,
ReplyDeleteAre you willing to accept Government supported or PAID FOR abortion to get affordable Universal Healthcare coverage?
But, Jesus can't work through Government - he only works through individuals!
ReplyDelete>>
I really don't agree with that post.
What is government made of ... Individuals !
Government should do what is right for its people. I just dont see this thing of government being some evil entitity out there. we have a governmetn BY the people FOR the people ... so we are the government.
Also, ive seen too much rhetoric from conservatives to believe that people would even get help if government was not doing it.
Id much rather my tax dollars go to helping the poor than for million dollar bonuses for top executives who are already making millions off the backs of poor people.
I'm not sure I believe Jesus "works through" anybody. Not in a strict sense anyways. God is a God of justice. Jesus was sent to model that justice, and we are all called to follow the way of Jesus. All called to be colaborers with God seeking justice for the world. I'm not certain I believe in God as an interventionist so much as I see us, looking at the world through the eyes of Christ, working to make it a more just place.
ReplyDeleteDesmond TuTu once said, "I, without God can't. God without me won't" In other words, don't ask God to feed the hungry when you have plenty of bread."
@JJ-11:03am "Id much rather my tax dollars go to helping the poor than for million dollar bonuses for top executives who are already making millions off the backs of poor people."
ReplyDeleteAmen.
JJ, you're sounding an awful lot like a liberation theologian. :)
I do have some things in common with liberation theologians.
ReplyDeleteBut we do part company over the nature of Christ, and the mission of Christ.
:)
@9:13am, "I don't think Jesus was referring to the use of Government when he was telling us to care for each other including the POOR!"
ReplyDeleteTo the extent that we have / need government, it should be just. Ad morality isn't as clear cut, or black and white as you would like it to be...
Luke 18:18-23
A certain ruler asked him, ‘Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honour your father and mother.” ’ He replied, ‘I have kept all these since my youth.’ When Jesus heard this, he said to him, ‘There is still one thing lacking. Sell all that you own and distribute the money* to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.’ But when he heard this, he became sad; for he was very rich.
Jesus cautioned against our use/misuse of money, and the way we treat one another far more than he talked about our "morality."
Good posts!
ReplyDeleteBut, what if its easier to let Government take care of the POOR! Than for charities, churches and individuals to make that effort!
The point is that by the Government helping there usually isn't a way or even sometimes any incentive for them to do any better!
Therefore, relegating them to a life which limits there choices and or the use of their abilities!
AND
Don't even try to tell me that Welfare hasn't created and perpetuated a SUB-Class within our own Society!
@4:42pm - Point well taken. I think that for some, there is some level of welfare dependency, and little incentive to find work. I believe that system needs to be overhauled. If you are able bodied, and want assistance, you should have to work. Clean a park, paint a public building, paint lines in the street, wash dishes at a nursing home... Don't want to work, don't get paid. Also, drug tesating for all welfare recipients. I have to be tested for my employment. First time positive, mandatory treatment. @nd time, no check...
ReplyDeleteI favor socialized medicine. Absent that, we should at least allow free competition across state lines. Also, no opt out, no fines for non compliance. Your insurance premiums should be automatically deducted from your payroll check, whether it is public or private health care...
Workfare, not welfare...
ReplyDelete@February 27, 2010 8:13 AM - "I wonder how folks made it 300 years ago without a government to take care of them?"
ReplyDeleteIn 1900, the average worldwide life expectancy was 30. The fact is, people didn't make it...
People died from things as simple as an infected tooth.
But hey, I hear you; I long for the good old days as well...
@March 1, 2010 9:13 AM - "In fact when you bond together with those who do not believe through Government Policies! You simply restrict or eliminate His ability to use YOU!"
ReplyDeleteJesus must not be as powerful as people believe he is; with so many claiming to be people of faith, claiming to believe in Jesus, and his power to transform lives, and work miracles, why is there still so much pain and suffering in the world? So much war, so much hunger, so much injustice?
Just curious.
because, unfortunately, we have the free will to resist that work. and many resist having their lives transformed as they could be.
ReplyDeletethe answer is rather simple. Jesus is powerful enough, but he wont do it against our will.
as it says in scripture .. men preferred darkness to light because their deeds were evil.
im not so sure free will is all its cracked up to be.
So our free will is stronger than God's will that all be reconciled unto him? Or that none should perish, but have eternal life?
ReplyDeleteDidn't God create us, and give us that free will?
Why punish us for acting in the manner in which we were created?
If it were the other way you would criticize God for not giving us free will.
ReplyDeleteIts called a double-bind argument.
We were not created to sin and go against God. We were created to enjoy the earth and build good things and have fellowship with God.
Evil is unnatural and goes against the nature God put inside us.
When we get past that deception, we can truly be free.
He even came in earthly form - Jesus - to set us free from that deception, but still allows us to not accept that freedom.
That is perfect love, one that does for others and asks - requires - nothing in return.
God never sent anyone to Hell. It is our choice.
After the civil war, there were some slaves who did not want to be free, and continued serving their masters. They did not have to, but did anyway.
It is the same with sin. We do not have to continue to be captives and slaves, yet many choose to.
Theologian Douglas John Hall has proposed that sin is the avoidence of suffering. To suffer is to be human. A certain amount is necessary for us grow as people. Our desire to live the "good life," free from suffering,and our belief that we actually can is what paradoxicly causes us even greater suffering. We try to avoid suffering, and we deny that suffering exists around us, even when we are complicit in that suffering. That also, according to Hall is sin. To deny the suffering of others, or to see it and turn a blind eye, or a deaf ear is sin.
ReplyDeleteNot the legalism that so many of us see as sin...
Rabbi Harold Kushner ends his book, "How Good do We Have To Be with the following - "
“So the woman saw that the tree was good to eat and a delight to the eye and the serpent said to her, “Eat of it, for when you eat of it, you will be as wise as God.” But the woman said, ”No, God has commanded us not to eat of it, and I will not disobey God.”
And God called to the man and the woman and said to them, ”Because you have hearkened to My word and not disobeyed My command, I shall reward you greatly.” To the man He said, ”You will never have to work again. Spend your days in idle contentment, with food growing around you.” To the woman, He said,”You will bear children without pain and you will raise them without pain. They will need nothing from you. Children will not cry when their parent dies and parents will not cry when their children die.” To both of them He said, “For the rest of your lives you will have full bellies and contented smiles. You will never cry and you will never laugh. You will never long for something you don’t have and you will never receive something you always wanted.” And the man and the woman grew old together in the garden, eating daily from the Tree of Life, and having many children. And the grass grew high around the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil until it disappeared form view, for there was no one to tend it.”
Kind of puts a different spin on the fall...
Also from Kushner, “I am suggesting that the story of the Garden of Eden is not an account of people being punished for having made one mistake, losing paradise because they were not perfect. It is the story of the first humans graduating, evolving from the relatively uncomplicated world of animal life to the immensely complicated world of being human and knowing that there is more to life than eating and mating, that there are such things as good and evil.” God wanted us to eat the apple says Kushner. The story should be read says Kushner, not as “an account of Eve imposing Sin and Death on her descendants, but as an account of her giving us humanity, with all its pain and all of its richness… Eve has given her descendants more than existence; she has given us Life.
ReplyDeleteGod could have chosen to give us a life of mere existence. Never experiencing pain or suffering. Always experiencing goodness, and never needing mercy; but what kind of life would that be? If we only experienced good, with no pain, or sorrow, or suffering to contrast it with, would we be able to recognize it as good at all? If we were nothing but mindless robots, with no free will, no control over our own destiny, if God protected us from every evil, every calamity, and no harm ever befell us, would that even be life at all."
Interesting stuff. :)
ReplyDelete