Cop notes are posted. Winfield and Sheriff notes are updated as well.
Life is getting in the way of the web site and the blog at the moment. Im doing some freelance projects and cant get as much done.
I did want to comment on the possible TIF district that is in the works. I think it is good to set up a district so that a TIF could be used if a deal is presented.
You could argue that this is a way of preventing what happened with Lowes from happening again. Granted. But, we need leadership in Arkansas City, and I think this is that.
We need development and vision.
You cannot expect some major company to just show up and start doing business here. You have to recruit them, you have to go after them. You have to be able to give them a deal.
If we had 20 miles of pristine beaches, or maybe a 12,000 foot mountain peak with snow ... we might not have to try to attract people and businesses.
But we do have some things to offer here.
Setting the stage for a TIF is a good start, I think.
Was Lowe's REALLY going to build a store in Ark City ?
ReplyDeleteNO, but the developer was going to build one.
ReplyDeletedoublespeak. a shell game. what about the local man who has a dream of starting a business here? who's going to "give him a deal"?
ReplyDeletepoint: i'm no dottie or mell fan. but, they do have,and had a valid point. a point which no one has successfully answered. why give a giant conglomerate a "deal" when in the process you trample the hard working local guy who's saved all his life to try something in his home town?
why give a giant conglomerate a "deal"
ReplyDelete>
Very simple answer
there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other places offering incentives.
so ... if you dont, they will go elsewhere and another town will prosper while we dont.
I'm sorry but I don't see it happening! There just isn't enough population to support a Lowe's!
ReplyDeleteI don't care how much smoke ACI wants to blow!
It is about them getting Public Money to develope their property.
Something they can't or don't want to do on their own and the risk of failure falling onto the PUBLIC!
PLAIN and SIMPLE!
I dont know why people refuse to understand, i dont believe they cannot understand, it must be refusing to understand.
ReplyDeleteThis is how a TIF works. Taxes are paid as normal, those taxes are put into a special account that pays for infrastructure.
If it does not get built, nothing happens.
that is the deal in a nutshell.
Worst case scenario you end up with an empty building which you got at no cost because the taxes paid, paid for it.
I'll say this one more time then I'll lay off!
ReplyDeleteIf it is such a Hot DEAL? Why aren't there people lined up to do it?
Its probably tailored to handsomely profit the people who have the greatest to gain! Namely a developer and the the Complex owners!
Show me some of the other competing party(ies) for such a developement and the Publics Money! Either another developer or other optional locations!
You can't!
That tax money comes from taxpayers!
NO !
ReplyDeletethe tax money comes from the developer.
the developer still pays the taxes and that is where the money comes from.
one more time and i'll lay off too. i'm poster from 11:57 a.m. / i understand perfectly, i just don't agree. i just don't buy the "we'll be stuck in past argument". here's my point: it's the local people who give back to the community. the giants just take the money & run back to bentonville (or wherever) too bad no one really knows how many $$ our local grocer has given to worthy causes around town. (he doesn't call the paper for a photo-op every time he gives a donation to local needs) he's not the only local business owner who gives either. i just used that example because i know for fact. now, i'll not explain this again. different mindsets i guess.
ReplyDeleteNO !
ReplyDeleteYes, the materials and all the infrastucture has to be paid for, then reimbursed by taxes from the Developer!
IMHO, they should set aside money for developement for which interested parties can compete! Anywhere in the City! Or on land which could be purchased for developement by interested
parties!
OR
ACI should give the property to the City and let the City Develope it! Let them put it up for competitive bids between developers for industry or businesses!
If public funds are to be USED!
On their own they can do it however they want! (They are in the County)
ACI should give the property to the City and let the City Develope it!
ReplyDeleteThen you would say it is socialism and that the city should not be in the business of developing property.
Then you would say it is socialism and that the city should not be in the business of developing property.
ReplyDeleteTell that to the City of Winfield!
They give away land for bonafied and qualified businesses. (Not Speculators)
You think that's Socialism?
But they won't even consider a TIF!
An empty building is not worse case scenario.
ReplyDeleteIn this day and age, one has to use very little imagination to come up with worse scenario's for a TIF district.
I have a very simple question.
ReplyDeleteJJ said "...there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other places offering incentives."
So here is my question to you, sir.
How does a TIF encourage businesses to come to their district?
It may seem as though that is a question from an uneducated simpleton. But nevertheless, enlighten me, I would appreciate any help I can get in broadening my horizons.
I had Ms Unterberg last year in english lit.
ReplyDeleteThey save money. Usually they also ask for other tax breaks as well, like Creekstone got a 10-year deal on its property taxes.
ReplyDeleteThe TIF was first designed to help rehablitate blighted areas.
A company gets to use taxes generated to pay for infrastructure, and maybe some of the buildings.
If it is never built, there is no tax money generated and nothing at all happens.
Nothing gets people riled up like a TIF.
Why do you suppose it riles people up?
ReplyDeleteSounds to me like we are using tax dollars to dramatically increase the value of privately owned land. Looks like a sweetheart of a deal.
All sold under the guise that nothing would possibly happen without it.
The economic department of Iowa State University did a very interesting 10 year study of the effects of TIF districts in their state. It is about 12 pages long.
Here is the final sentence of the report:
"Though the TIF programs is highly popular among city government officials, and why wouldn’t it be given the growth in property tax yield over the years, there is virtually no evidence of broad economic or social benefits in light of the costs."
http://www.econ.iastate.edu/research/webpapers/paper_4094_N0138.pdf
The thing that bothers me is that misinformation that is thrown around by opponents.
ReplyDeleteThe tax money used is tax money paid by the developer.
All sold under the guise that nothing would possibly happen without it.
ReplyDelete>>>
Ok, let's see your plan....
Opponents need to show what they will do to help develop the area.
What misinformation has been posted?
ReplyDeleteThe misinformation is that the citizen taxpayers would be footing the bill.
ReplyDeleteIt should also be noted:
ReplyDeleteThr TRAVELER NEWSPAPER OWNS SHARES OF ACI. A potential conflict of interest when reporting about the TIF. Of course Lil'Davey won't acknowledge this in print......
At last count 100 shares. I know several other businesses own share also, but a newspaper is suppose to be impartial when reporting.
Sorry a slight correction, it is 30 shares that the Traveler owns.
ReplyDeleteJames,
ReplyDeleteWhat if the developer defaults on his taxes and goes bankrupt? Who is still making the bond payments on that infrastructure?
In a TIF, the city guarantees bond repayment, not the developer. So if the deal for a privately owned business goes bad before the TIF is repaid, then you and me and all of our neighbors continue to pay the bill.
But how could a business ever default in this day and age;)
buy bond insurance
ReplyDeleteor there are ways to work the deal so that the company would still be liable.
on the other hand, the infrastructure would already be in place for someone else.
there is always risk.
i guess it could happen that taxpayers might have to pay off some of it in a worst case scenario, but the odds are not real likely when there are bond insurance policies out there, and there are ways to structure the thing to hold the company liable.
if we do nothing, nothing will change and ark city will fade away even further ... is that what you want>?
if we do nothing, nothing will change and ark city will fade away even further ... is that what you want>?
ReplyDeleteGive me a break!
Thats so untrue! You simply can't get on track because you have opposing visions which often cancel each other and nothing happens!
But, there is no compromise with those who have a specific agenda! Like the development of their property!
The TIF was oringinally designed for blighted areas! I know of one instance in K.C. where there was property that they wanted developed.
The area was so rocky that no developer would touch it! So it took a TIF to offset the additional cost so the development could happen!
But thats not always the case and there are instances where developers don't deliver or not to the extent they promised!
If you look deep enough there is also the interpretation that if an area is consider "BLIGHTED" it can also be acquired through Eminent Domain by an entity for development or redevelopment!
Do you think ACI wants it designated as a blighted area?
Give the City the property and relinguish control! If tax payer money is used!
They can still benefit from the increased valuation and infrastructure improvement on their adjoining property. Which btw will still be in the county!
Or
Make that same opportunity available to others who will make a difference through new businesses growth or their own expansion!
Just don't let them tell you it won't be developed without the TIF. That is entirely their choice!
Then of course ther is this little bullet!
ReplyDeleteAlthough generally sold to legislatures as a tool to redevelop blighted areas, some districts are drawn up where development would happen anyway such as prime areas at the edges of cities. California has had to pass legislation designed to curb this abuse.[5]
James... Oh James...
ReplyDeleteHeres my problem with the whole improving the area idea your throwing around. Most of us live here because we like the way things are here. If we wanted a larger city we would move to larger cities. If we wanted richer cities we would move to richer cities and so on. I love Ark City, I grew up here, Im raising my daughter here. Its a fine place to live right now without your beloved industry.
Ok, thats an interesting point.
ReplyDeleteIm not all that into industry, I would just like to see more retail.
But, maybe we don't need to grow.
There are some things we could do though, to improve the quality of life.
I would like more hot girls
ReplyDeleteI would like to get a TIF on my house and property so ALL of the tax I paid the last ten years would go on improvments to the infastruture...ie street, sewer, ect.....If it is good enough for business then it is good enough for John Q Public....
ReplyDeleteJJ,
ReplyDeleteIs IT a BLIGHTED area unable to be developed without Public assitance?
or
Is it Prime land for development Privately owned!
They are two completely opposite things!
It can't be both - blighted in the sight of the City and Prime Development to ACI!
One qualifies for a TIF and the other doesn't!
What's the TRUTH!
The PUBLIC deserves the TRUTH!
It fits the legal description of "blighted area" as far as the program is concerned. That is the truth.
ReplyDeleteACI was created to facilitate growth - so , why is it a crime when they do so?
It fits the legal description of "blighted area" as far as the program is concerned. That is the truth.
ReplyDeleteEven when its located in the in the COUNTY?
The fact is they have to create a "blighted area" by giving it to the City. Otherwise it is probably rural commercial/industrial/agricultural
ReplyDeleteproperty private owned and in the County!
I'll bet you could get a bunch of takers if you want to open that can of WORMS!
i'm not sure about the "like things the way they are" hummmmm1 seems we lost total, benny smith, cessna, rodeo, gordan piatt, several business,s downtown, stc. yea i guess we are really growing. also lost all that tax base that has to be made up somewhere. lets see higher salery for city manager.....new dept head? asst city manager. way to go arkcity. no wonder we have a new town just east of us.d.
ReplyDeleteyes i know benny-smith was not in arkcity but a lot of arkcity people worked there.
ReplyDeleteWhether it is in the county, privately owned or not, is irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteFor purposes of the program, rural areas are included in what is called blighted.
Besides, it is annexed, so its in the city now.
this only creates a way to have a TIF. it does not create one. If someone wants a place to develop, this one will be set up .. whether it involves a TIF or not.
whether it involves a TIF or not.
ReplyDeleteWell it is designated a TIF district!
What do you think they intend to do?
Probably a clear manipulation of the original intent and use of a TIF. But what the hey? They win someone else loses! (No wonder Winfield didn't want one!)
Those companies/industry we lost aren't coming back any time soon if ever!
But there are smaller companies/industries and services that might be attracted to this area!
It won't be done by one city alone and that area for development with existing infrastucture is still at Stother Field!
We just have too many people that want to ride out their jobs till retirement or maintain the Status QUO then to work together!
AND
Then there are those who want it THEIR way or NO WAY!
If ACI was formed to bring businesses in to Ark City then let them. They have plenty of funds available. If they want to upgrade the property for business use, let them, they will be the ones selling it or renting it out anyways. Let them foot the bill, and if they do like they say they want to, then tax revenues will still increase.
ReplyDeleteLet them foot the bill, and if they do like they say they want to, then tax revenues will still increase.
ReplyDeleteThier tax revenues will still go to the County on the reamaining property. Not the City!
Then the taxpayer gets to develope the infrastucture!
Thats the beauty of this whole deal! They set up an entity in the County to avoid the City taxes and control in the first place! Then/now they want the City to do the all the work/expense!
Talk about an inside One way DEAL!
In favor of a for-profit group of investors/land speculators!
Who want YOU TO BELIEVE ITS ALL ABOUT YOU!
Pushed through by a group of elected and appointed officals who are supposed to represent the Public!
Sorry, it would make a nice Movie!
If we get a TIF in this town, will that attract more hot girls to the area?
ReplyDeletewhy not do some real reporting and tell us the difference in the taxes on 33 acres of agricultural land in the county versus the same land now brought into the city limits with infrastructure in place? If there is development in this area, and the city commission gives the same type of tax break cited by you that they gave Creekstone, how do the city coffers increase? If this land is now in the city, but it takes several years for any development, does the property tax money go to the city?, has the assessed value increased from what is was when it layed in the county? I thought there was an increase in the sales tax collected from businesses located in the tif district that was to provide for bond repayment? or infrastructure?
ReplyDeleteI thought there was an increase in the sales tax collected from businesses located in the tif district that was to provide for bond repayment? or infrastructure?
ReplyDeleteNow your Talking!
You see this movie requires a special type of glasses!
No! Not 3-D
But the ones that let you see the tax aversion tactics!
Then when you put those on - its a whole different world!
AND
You get to see the people that really know how to work the system!
All over the COUNTRY!
Here's my problem. Someone help me. When I drive by that piece of property, it sure doesn't look "blighted" to me. Are we lying or are we telling the truth when when we assign the word "blighted" to it? Personally, I think it's a lie. (or at the least twisting the truth) Sorry, but I can have no part in lies or half-truths.
ReplyDeleteYes a TIF will bring more hot girls to Ark City. haha Ms. Unterberg already here.
ReplyDeleteyou're nuts. people trying to have a serious discussion. go play with your toy trucks.
ReplyDeleteAs noted above, it fits the legal description of the program, as a blighted area. What it looks like is irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteNo, it wasn't blighted when in the County!
ReplyDeleteJust because something is legal doesn't make it right.
ReplyDeleteIt is perfectly legal to walk downtown with a 44mag sittin on my hip. I wouldnt try it tho.
ReplyDelete"...it fits the legal description of the program, as a blighted area. What it looks like is irrelevant."
ReplyDeleteThat's why this country is in the mess it's in now. Everybody trying to get something for nothing. twisting & using language to do something it was not designed to do. Be honest, jj, this is not a blighted area. Just mumbo jumbo, lawyerese double speak. I'll not be a part of any such stuff. If it was blighted (truly) then I'd listen. As it is, the argument just doesn't fit. Legally, yes. Morally, no. jj, you like to quote Scripture. WWJD?
WWJD?
ReplyDeleteThe words of his the come to mind are
"you people strain at a gnat and swallow a camel."
2nd Peter 2.3
ReplyDeleteAnd in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
greed is an apt word here. unbridled greed. ain't it funny how people (some people) can even make the Bible say what they want it to say. now, when it comes to TIF, i think i've seen it it all. ROTFL
ReplyDeleteYou want blighted areas? Why not make a TIF on west Madison or south Summit?
ReplyDeleteIndeed! Why not build the new hospital there, too?
ReplyDeletein Wichita , the developers who used the TIF , had the property re appraised to get the taxes lowered now they are having to make up for the shortfall. that does not sound like a good idea to me
ReplyDeleteLOOK IT UP ON THE WICHITA EAGLE ARCHIVES