The idea of a TIF district is coming back to Arkansas City. It was talked about briefly at meetings last week, and should come up again.
Im sure everyone remembers a couple years ago, when the TIF was shot down, that could have brought a Lowes. (I wonder if we can get past the Lowe's deal of the past and talk about a TIF on its own merits?)
Anyways, a TIF is a Tax Increment Finance deal. This means usually, that the taxes collected are used to pay for infrastructure.
The property taxes are collected, and put into a fund used to pay for things like water, sewer, streets, parking lots etc., The sales taxes are still paid and that is revenue coming into the city.
Im still trying to think of how this could be a bad deal.
In theory, the deal could go bad and the taxpayers would be left holding the bag. But even if that happened, worst case scenario you end up with an empty building.
There is opposition in general, just as there was during the Lowes deal. But now is the time for leadership. Good leadership sees what needs to be done and does it even if it is not popular.
Now is that time.
I hope we can have the forward-type thinking that will bring development and progress to Arkansas City. That is the type vision and leadership we need.
The city wants to create a TIF district, and have it ready to go so that can be used as a reruiting tool.
The idea that we should not give incentives is ridiculous. Evey town in the world is bending over backwards with incenitives. WHy should a company bother to listen to a town with no incentives when there are 20 others that are? The answer is .. they have no reason to and they won't.
Some of the commissioners oppose a TIF for retail, but I believe nearly all of them support a TIF for industry.
personally, I don't care what kind it is.
We need growth, development and vision.
I am not even sure industry is the best thing, or what we need most. Before the economy tanked, the industries we had could not find enough employees. So new industry would too I guess.
The argument then becomes that we need people and housing.
The answer is not in any one thing.
The answer is .. we need to be trying as many things as possible at the same time.
We need to make the city more attractive.
We need to recruit people as well.
We need better housing, more businesses, more people, more employers.
You can argue for one until the cows come home and nothing will get done.
The answer is to get the ball rolling in any way you can.
The commission has put a new TIF in progress. This is the beginning of vision and leadership. I would encourage them to stay the course and get it done.
I must takd issue with you 'comrade' Jordan! "Good leadership sees what needs to be done and does it even if it is not popular"!!! In a country that became the leader of the world through the majority of the people, journalists now promote forcing issues on the 'people' based on a limited number of those who support it! Your statement that before the economy tanked, the industry we had could not find enough employees is just plain BS!! The industry we have demands work ethics that have been bred out of our younger generation through our educational systems (one you have apparently graduated from) and government levels from local thru to the national level. The taxes that we have been paying, and will continue to pay were put in place for infrastructure upkeep and replacement, but through gross mismanagement of those funds in a myriad of directions, the socialists who are in power have squandered them and turn to the captive population to pay MORE AND MORE. It is a shame that the power of the media no longer holds our government accountable, but now only serves as its mouthpiece to voice the propaganda of the wealthy few. In a worst case scenario, you say, all we end up with is an empty bldg., but let us hope that, before it goes bellyup, we have collected enough in revenues to pay for the infrastructure that was put in place to service the TIF ! WE will not end up with an empty bldg, but rather the property owners who are pushing for the TIF will be the ones who now hold a piece of property worth vastly more because of the manipulations of gov. by these special interest groups, they have a special interest in MAKING MONEY !! I challenge you or anyone of your comrades to answer one question; HOW MUCH MONEY IS ENOUGH FOR CHRISTIANS SUCH AS YOURSELVES??
ReplyDeleteWell, first why does Winfield oppose a TIF and Ark City favors one?
ReplyDeleteSecond, You need to look at the type of businesses that are growing and not compare what we had in the past!
The problem of labor was in part due to the use of temporary agencies - where often at the end of 6 months the people were let go because they would have to be made permnanet employees. People with responsibilites and ownership of property can't/won't work those jobs!
Also, the lower payscale and benefits associated with temporary labor jobs.
There is also the problem of drug testing that eliminates a certain number of applicants!
But, ask yourself what are thew things that are working elsewhere to encourage business/industry?
One is free land - rather than choosing to make a huge profit on a real estate investment!
The other is there are assets available today that are not used, like Strother Field!
Why would you want to spend in a period of declining revenue with above average unemployment, and reduction in Government budgets/aid?
Now is the time to make better use of the assets you have - not create more assets!
AND
Lastly, why does the City need a group at all to represent them such as A/C industries?
JJ,
ReplyDeleteHere's the points:
First don't overlook whats been and being done already!
Orscheln was a great contribution to the town and area. The employees say their sales has tripled with the new store.
There's been developement along Summit with new buildings.
There has been a renewal effort of the old downtown. (Windows).
The new hospital and school improvments.
I don't know about the status of the new Braums but that is a positive.
The meat business and building downtown is a plus.
These have all been done without additional public funds and with the existing ifrastructure! (except the schools and hospital)
Why would you push for a TIF!
What needs to be done today is to promote the area and its benefits and assets to create more jobs!!!!
Not too long ago a local industry expanded in this area because it was cheaper here than in Texas!
We have empty buildings!
Second, spend some time and find out why some of those who develope choose to do so in the county? There are various reasons its not a one size fits all solution!
What could have been done to get them to build in the City?
To pursue a TIF at this point in time is simply to support someones special agenda!
The answer is .. we need to be trying as many things as possible at the same time.
ReplyDeleteWe need to make the city more attractive.
We need to recruit people as well.
We need better housing, more businesses, more people, more employers.
You can argue for one until the cows come home and nothing will get done.
The answer is to get the ball rolling in any way you can.
You can't throw money at everything hoping something works. AC, Winfield and Cowley need to cooperate and organize a plan for developement. A new factory in either town helps both, just think if there was a joint effort to get the Amazon warehouse. Instead of Coffeyvile, Cowley could have had those jobs.
Several groups all running around trying to do there own thing is counterproductive. And as for the "enlightening" article about ACI in the Traveler the other week... wouldn't it have been better if the Traveler had disclosed the fact that the Traveler owns a large amount of shares in ACI????? Maybe there take on ACI is a bit biased....hmmmm
Amazon, that's a laugh. I use to live in the 'ville. I was there when Amazon first came in, and expanded the old Western Pub building from 750000 sq ft to 1.5 million square ft. The majority of the jobs out there are Temp jobs, from the numerous Temp agencies around Montgoemery Co in Ks, and Nowata and Washington Co in OK. Of those full time jobs that are available, the majority of those are held by long timers (greater than 5 years), and live not in Ks, but Bartlesville, OK. Amazon is not that great of a place to work, at least not the Coffeyville Dist facility. Low wages (minimum wage), no benefits, and so on. People work there when they can't get on at Walmart, or if AIW, Deere, Ceesna, or JenCast/Jenson are going through one of their seasonal layoffs. Amazon is always hiring through the Temp Agencies, as their turnover is extremely high. They are hiring right now for seasonal "pickers" because of the Christmas season. Once January roles around, 30-40% will be asked not to come back. Those with positive attitudes and good work ethic will be asked to stay on, replacing those are not.
ReplyDeleteIf the TIFF does put new water, sewer and streets in for any devoloping business, would those utilities be large enough to handle future growth or would we have to use another TIFF to grow more? If a TIFF can bring in utilities and streets for further growth, as long as the newcomer is paying the taxes, I don't think it matters what comes in. Industry, Sales, or even offices or apartments for that matter. If the taxes from one TIFF group can pay for future growth then it's simple math. DO IT!
ReplyDeletes1w said...
ReplyDeleteAmazon, that's a laugh.
Yes, but as you said Amazon does offer jobs when other industries lay-off
Even if most of the workers are from Bartlesville, Amazon is still paying taxes into the local city and gov't. Employees are still spending some money on gas, or food.
And as for the comment "those with positive attitudes and good work ethic will be asked to stay on". That is true of most businesses, unless they are union....
Amazon had asked, and gotten, tax exempt status from C'ville since they came in. That was one of the requirements to move in. They asked for, and got, a 10 year exempt status when looking at the Western Pub building. They just got another one a few years ago; C'ville doesn't get any tax money from them. Not that they are special; C'ville tax-exempts most of their big companies. Acme Foundry hasn't paid taxes for 30 years. Everytime Jenson Bros. has theirs come up, they threaten to move to their sister company in OK if they do not get an exempt status, though they have been there forever.
ReplyDeleteAlso, do you know where Amazon is at? It's in the Industrial Park in C'Ville, which is 8 miles from C'ville. There isn't anything out there except the Airport, AIW, Deere, and a few other industries (and cows across the hwy). No gas stations or fast food places out there. Kinda like Strother field. They are building a new Super Wally World on that side of town. I guess on their 30 minute lunch break, they can travel 10 min each way to support the local economy at Wally World.
Oh, by the way, Amazon is a non-union shop. How do you think they get away with hiring temps all the time? Big wigs in Seattle won't go for it.
Don't think I am down playing the need for some sort of commercial or industry in AC. I just have lot of experience dealing w/ Amazon, and know that they are not the best company to deal with. They are nice and shiny on the outside, kinda of dark and shadowy on the inside.
Quoting from Dec. 7th at 4:39: "The industry we have demands work ethics that have been bred out of our younger generation through our educational systems (one you have apparently graduated from) and government levels from local thru to the national level."
ReplyDeleteThis is by far the most unreasonable statement I have read on James Jordan's blogs. I want to know how the school and government have done the breeding of our younger generation. The breeding starts at home, continues thoughout life from the home, and not the school or the government. A parent instills in a child the work ethics of a child, but a parent never can have complete control of a child at any point in the child's life. No human controls another human. Now the schools and government are getting blamed for the parents' breeding. Wow, what will come next?
It is the parents' responsibility to start teaching a child. The child is born to the parents, duh! The work ethics start when a child is given chores. If a child never has to do chores, then who's to blame? If a child is given a TV, a bike, a video game, a cell phone, a computer, (the list could continue) without having to pay a penny for it, who's to blame? The educational system or the govenment? Why not where the problem originated? The parents!
Today's youth are so spoiled from the parents of today that they don't see working for anything. If the schools try to get a child to do work, the parents are up at a school before the next tear drop falls shouting it is unfair. If a school, or the police even, try to make the child follow the rules, the parents are up there before the punishment has been issued begging for mercy for their precious angel.
Give me a break! Our youth would have work ethics if their parents have work ethics. I know of several parents that will call in to tell the schools that thier child is sick, so they won't be at school. When in fact, the child and parent have better things planned for that day. For instance, my neighbors who took their children to Disney Land during school term for the sake of a family vacation. The children weren't on vacation from school, so why tell them it is okay to miss school for this? Is this teaching good ethics? Or how about when the parent calls in sick, then heads for Wichita to do their Christmas shopping while the children are in school? The children know the parents went to Wichita to shop, but that's okay to lie to work for the good of the child.
Oh mercy, some dumb statements are put on here which I have to laugh at, but this one really got to me as a parent. I can now blame the schools and government for teaching my child work ethics. I can blame the schools for not teaching my child to read and do math since I never sang, read, or played games with him before he started to school. Why should I, teaching is for the schools? I didn't have to give him any desire to learn before he walked into their doors. They are suppose to do it all. If they don't, then it their fault. I won't take the blame.
Give me a break,
A concern parent,
Now as far as this TIF situation. I believe whatever it takes to get jobs by giving businesses a reason to come to AC, then I say go for it. If we can keep our parents and students off drugs, alcohol, and out of gangs long enough to get the jobs and keep the jobs.
Employers find the most difficulty lie in finding employees that are drug free than work ethics.
I have said my piece, now condemn me!
Did you not graduate from an eduacational system, 4:39?
Good comments.
ReplyDeleteI want to just say a word in defense of young people. Since the earliest days people have criticized "the younger generation."
You should read what Plato wrote thousands of years ago. Not much different than what people say now.
I know several young people who are fine people, responsible, hard workers .. so what if they have green hair or metal hanging off their face.
Its not what I like but ...
I was once called a long hair when i was a teen. it was a scandal then, but my hair was longer than my girl friends lol.
and she was jealous of my hair. to bad i dont have hardly any now.
You can't throw money at everything hoping something works. AC, Winfield and Cowley need to cooperate and organize a plan for developement.
ReplyDeleteThat's spot on!
Also, you can't attract/support the same players to a small community that you can to a larger one or that could be supported by an area!
While that might have been a possibility for a Lowes, but, there was no conformation that Lowe's would have come, what about the local businesses in both towns that would have been directly effected and maybe lost?
Industry has different needs and requirements!
Then, regardless what the approach the potential of exisitng assets - like Strother Field still remains, whether we choose to use them or not we will contiune to pay the expense!
Why not spend on development that has the best chance of benefiting both communities?
AND
Like it or not the 77 business corridor is most likely the future for any major growth in the County!
"there was no conformation that Lowe's would have come" Not True! JJ go ask the city manager, there were signed documents. Just another fine example of our failure to listen and understand all the facts! The Lowes deal was completly misrepresented by the three amigos.
ReplyDeleteI have said that over and over and over and over and over, and a few more times.
ReplyDeletedoesnt matter what documentation you have
some people will deny anything.
Does it make sense to anyone that a developer would take all the time and effort, without having a project to build?
It is true that Lowes did not have a specific plan to come, but thats because the developer did.
Does it make sense to anyone that a developer would take all the time and effort, without having a project to build?
ReplyDeleteWhat doesn't make sense is why there was only one PROMOTER WHO OWNED THE PROPERTY AND ONE DEVELOPER - AND WHY 4 YEARS!
The deal must have been tailored in a way so he and a few others were handsomely rewarded!
WHERE WAS THAT FRENZY OF SHARKS AT THE FIRST SIGN OF BLOOD!
"to bad i dont have hardly any now."
ReplyDeleteDude. Seriously. You were the Editor of a newspaper. Spelling and grammar are still important in making people believe you are an intelligent person, even if it is just a blog.