Good Monday Morning.
This is a great time of year weather wise, and its almost football season. The Walnut Valley Festival is not far away. That's about as good as it gets.
Anyway, I have posted a series of cartoons on the web site.
City Commissioner Mell Kuhn sent them to me. The cartoons make fun of Tax Increment Finance districts.
He is against TIF districts for things like big boxes - Lowes developments. He would support them for industry.
I do not necessarily agree with the cartoons, but they are good cartoons regardless. So I posted them. Maybe that will inspire others to submit material. I am not one to post only things I agree with.
But another reason to post them is that the TIF is not going away.
Other commissioners, such as Jay Warren and Patrick McDonald - and possibly Jean Snell, have a TIF in the back of their minds. They are working on putting together another TIF - or are at least thinking about it.
Warren told me last week that it should be coming up before the commission in 60-90 days.
They want to have a TIF in place, so that when they find someone interested, they will be able to give them the TIF. It takes a long time to bring in a major retailer - or a major retail development. They don't want to go to all that work only to have it shot down at the last minute, as it was with Lowes.
The issue is whether a TIF is good for retail, and to a lesser degree perhaps, whether we should be concentrating on retail or industry.
This issue has split the town more than any issue since I have been in Arkansas City.
We all have an opinion on this.
But one point I want to make is that, what we need more than anything else, is a civilized debate. We need people on both sides of the issue to be willing to listen to the other side, and to be open minded.
One thing I will say for our commissioners - and previous commissioners. Regardless of where they are on the issue, they really believe they are doing what is best for the city, and they are sincere in their beliefs.
It would be better if they foucused on the things that are lacking or are needed to make the community a better place for the residents, to attract new residents and to be a better contributor to the areas overall economy.
ReplyDeleteBut, using tax dollars, however you look at it at this point in time, with the current population and business, is probably robbing from the future not building one!
Here is a parable.
ReplyDeleteYou have a vacant field. Nothing grows there.
There is no expense and no income.
So you plant an apple tree. Some time later, you sell apples, and some of that money goes to pay for the tree and various things needed in tree growing.
Now there is income, but you have not had any expenses, because the sale of apples covers the cost.
After its paid for, you get income off the sale of apples.
So you are out no money, but you have income.
That is how a TIF works.
I thought where the Lowe's was going to be was originally outside of the city. It was supposed to be brought into the city. If we aren't getting anything for it now, and we don't get any new taxes out of it, how are we losing taxes?
ReplyDeleteThe real question seems to be whether or not the city will collect taxes on it in the future and if it will lower our taxes or at least keep them from raising in the future.
Just a curiosity, but if a Lowe's or something like it comes in, about how many new jobs would that create? Does anyone have any idea what an average salary is at Lowe's?
It was annexed on condition of TIF, when it was axed, it was de-annexed.
ReplyDeleteIt could have lowered taxes, or kept them from rising.
My outlook on the new Lowe's was strictly selfish. I want a place to buy home improvement items without having to drive to Ponca. I also want more of the surrounding cities and towns to contribute to our increased sales tax so it will be paid off quicker.
ReplyDelete"I am not one to post only things I agree with."
ReplyDeletewe know & thanks. The main reason I quit writing on brand x's blogs. For a long time, if the owner didn't agree with it, it was canned. So, I quit.
BTW, to tif or not to tif, that is the question.
My thoughts: I am not a personal fan of Mr. Kuhn, simply because of his attitude. BUT, on this we agree. Why should we help a Retailer come to town that will inevitably cause the local people to suffer? Just doesn't make sense. Case in point: My favorite grocer, (Hint: Their store has a BIG U.S. flag out front) They give untold thousands of Dollars $$$ back to the community every year. They never ask for a photo-op from the local paper. They just give because they care. How much does the local big-box dept. store give? We shoot ourselves in the foot with helping the big guys come in & cut the good local people off at the knees. that tif is a joke. and the joke's on us. I can see using it to help a factory get up & going. Sure, but a retailer. No way. And no, I am NOT a local retailer.
Maybe it would make our local stores have to compete. As it is now, local means higher prices. My family still shops at Dillons rather than the big box grocery, but it has made Dillons cut back some prices and compete. That is not a bad thing in my book. The local hardware stores could stand to cut their prices some.
ReplyDeleteTouche. You are right. But, consider: The local folk can't call and get a crack order of 50,000 coffemakers from a supplier in China with a nice thank you for being a great customer. The local people are behind the 8 ball and we put them there. Look, the local retailers aren't out to get us. They live here. Try calling Bentonville and asking for help. We've closed all our factories cause we could get the Chinese workers to work for a few cents a day. It's a crying shame. The local folks can't call & twist the arms of their suppliers to lower the wholesale cost. They have to take it or leave it. No wholesaler can stand up to the big box guys, and in case you didn't know these guys are ruthless.
ReplyDeleteI understand the fear of a Lowe's but I also understand that the current status quo is not helping the community grow. The last time Lowe's wanted to come the rally cry was to save Bryant's...we stopped Lowe's and still lost Bryant's. I think it is time that we all stopped to think about the future. We have to have a business that will employ more than a handful of people AND bring the dollars we are taking to Ponca and Wichita back home. I also believe that local businesses are capable of competing and while it is not easy it will only enhance the community.
ReplyDeleteI also believe that local businesses are capable of competing and while it is not easy it will only enhance the community.
ReplyDeleteAugust 24, 2009 2:32 PM
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You mean like enhance it out North of town on Privately held property turned Public to get the utilities supplied to the property on the Publics dime! While the older infrastructure continues to deteriorate!
Then keep the rest of the complex in the county and continue to develope without paying taxes to the City?
If I got a sandbar on the Arkasas River - can I get a TIF?
I think I see your point 2:22, but the way of the world has changed, and that, not local opinion, or local support, is what has caused the downfall of small mom & pop stores. Big Box is a sign of the times, and there is nothing we can do about it. Not letting a Lowe's come here will not change that one iota. All it will do is make us have to drive to Wichita or Ponca.
ReplyDeleteIts not about if they come its on who's money! AND then maybe who gains at who's expense!
ReplyDeleteBTW: If I plant an apple tree on my sandbar - can I call it a Tax Island?
"but the way of the world has changed," Touche again SG. I've never been against the Lowe's. I shop there from time to time. I am simply against giving one guy an unfair advantage over another. I think both should start their businesses on an equal footing. Why should we give a national retail chain that already has a wallet as deep as the Grand Canyon such a huge break and thereby give them an upper hand coming into the game? And thereby unintentionally cut the little guy off at the knees. The little guy who btw gives to all the local charities, supports the soccer teams, probably supports his local church, etc., who has been here and helped to build A.C. up. Just doesn't seem right to me. Maybe I'm just not with it, but...time will tell. Worthy of discussion.
ReplyDeleteI'm still trying to figure out what little guy you are wanting to cut out.
ReplyDeleteAnd the way I see it. No matter what develops the taxpayers are paying for the streets and sidewalks and whatever around it. What's the difference?
I grew up in Ark City but left in my mid 20's due to my career. I've lived in several large cities along the way, and now I'm back in Kansas. I still have family in Ark City! I could have lived there with the flexibility of my career, but I chose Wichita primarily because of the retail options. Ark City is a great community, but it's lacking choices. Mom & Pop stores have a niche, but they can no longer sustain a community given the competitive nature of larger chain stores. SG is correct...the times have changed! When I'm out and about, especially on the weekends, I see a LOT of cars from Cowley County. They obviously didn't drive up to Wichita for the scenery, they came for retail options. TIF's are a common and widely used development strategy, I've seen them just about every where I've lived. I get to travel around Kansas on a regular basis, there are plenty of towns comparable in size to AC that have numerous chain type stores within their boundaries. As monsterous as some might claim them to be, they create a lot of jobs AND they draw in consumers, More consumers in town equates to more $$ being spent at other local retailers. Change is inevitable, but growth is optional. Don't let the mindset (and perhaps even the selfish motives of a few) limit the growth of an awesome community like Ark City!
ReplyDeleteYea, businesses along summit get a free Street, free curb cuts, free connections to water, sewer and electricity, free parking.
ReplyDeleteLets not give those coming in an unfair advantage ... wait ... what ?
Ok, good point!
ReplyDeleteBut by your logic you will still see Cowley County tags in Wichita even if you get a few retail giants in the area! We have Wal Mart and Dillons.
Because, first we often choose to go out of town to shop! Second, we shop and do leisure things all in the same trip!
A Lowes won't keep people here that want to go to Sam's Club or Red Lobster or Red Beans Bar and Grill!
They will do all their errands in one day trip or in the event they commute to work at Aircraft on their way home.
You don't have the population to support the things other cities have nor do you have the income groups, age groups or infrastructure to support that type of Growth!
Yea, businesses along summit get a free Street, free curb cuts, free connections to water, sewer and electricity, free parking.
ReplyDeleteLets not give those coming in an unfair advantage ... wait ... what ?
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It's already there - so tear down the old buildings and rebuild on the same spot!
Very true...there will always be a need for shopping excursions to Wichita. However, every big retailer (such as a Lowes) will attract lots of customers from the smaller surrounding communities, not to mention providing your own citizens some options. All of those shoppers can then opt to shop at other stores and dine at restaurants in the community. Furthermore, the anchor effect of a major retailer is usually what entices other businesses and restaurants to build nearby, simply because the anchor store has attracted the necessary customer base. One step towards commercial development can snow ball into other opportunities. To shut out all those opportunities just because shoppers will often travel to a bigger city is shutting the door completely. Open the door, let some new well known business in and see what happens!
ReplyDeleteJJ, Missed the "press release"? Surely Chief Wallace sent you a press release about the "gun parts", that Mel Kuhn ordered and delivered to him. You know those that Wallace implied he was lying about. Oh maybe he's been so busy with his role as super sleuth in the movie, that he's not had time to write it yet. Surely Brand X, would want to make a front page release on that. No I don't care for Mel, but fair is fair. Wallace and to some extent Archer and Brand X roasted him, now it's there turn. Crow pie anyone?
ReplyDeleteSounds like Kuhn is putting out a press release in the above comment.
ReplyDeleteNow, back to the discussion at hand...
I was going to talk about how the downtown shops already have their parking and water, and sewer, and electric, but someone beat me to it.
I was going to talk about how it would help our increased sales tax get paid off sooner due to the smaller communities around us shopping there, but someone beat me to it.
I was going to talk about how it would be nice to have some eateries come in around the Lowe's so we could have some variety, but someone mentioned that too.
Smart bunch of folks we have in this thread. I guess I don't need to say anything else. They are doing a great job without me.
Yeah. discussion is civil on here. I'm the one who is not in favor of giving rich corporations a free ride.
ReplyDelete"To shut out all those opportunities...". Listen, I don't want to shut anyone out. Let 'em come. Come on. But, my question is what about the local people who choose to start a business here. I noticed an electrician & beautician business building a new building on Summit. I noticed a new business going in where the old Sonic was. Now, fair is fair. If we are willing to give these rich corporations a hefty break, then we must give these local people a break also. Fair is fair. I want A.C. to grow. Let's be fair about it.
You have a vacant field. Nothing grows there.
ReplyDeleteThere is no expense and no income.
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If your talking about Goff Industrial Park.
You have a wheat field some warehouses a cabinet door maker and a Meat Packing Plant with no income for the City except water and wages!
But, it has an income! Maybe even an oilwell?
But, whats even more interesting is that the ACI group wants to use other peoples money to develope that property.
Why can't they get financing to develope the complex especailly since its in the County?
Then, there really has been a change of mind-set over the last twenty years regarding the type of jobs that this area needs. Those who support retail have emerged as the drivers.
Sure your flush with cheap labor from college students - but what about small businesses private, technical, semi-skilled and skilled labor? Those are the people that buy or build homes and want to stay!
The population of retired is only going to get larger! I hope the low-income portion dosen't increase with it!
We forget that the downtown businesses at one time also got paved roads, utilities, curbs, sidewalks, etc. I know that was before most of us were around but they got them at the taxpayer expense. This time it is a little different because they are not getting them for free they will pay back PLUS in the meantime we get people with wages, and we get to shop for things our great stores do not carry. We can not afford to turn down the sales tax that comes with a new retail development and we must work to keep the merchants downtown in businesses by expecting them to carry items not available in a big box. Little towns have done it. Look at Atchinson with Nell Hills and some of the stores in neighboring communities...it can be done. We can positively hate change or we change positively.
ReplyDeleteThe interesting part about the whole debate is that Vision 20/20 stated in their report that based on the current economic environment (before the downturn) and the population this area couldn't support a Lowe's maybe a Sutherlands!
ReplyDeleteThey advise areas for a living not just by moving around or speculating on projects!
Makes you wonder why they were even hired and then paid with so many domestic experts!
Not exactly.
ReplyDeleteThe study , apendix c, page 8, says a sutherlands "might" be more suitable, yet, it also says a store such as a LOWES would be recommended.
Table c-10 shows that a lowes store would work.
The study recommends a store like lowes.
It clearly says that the local economy COULD support a Lowes.
So, what would they recommend today?
ReplyDeleteMaybe they would recommend the same thing?
ReplyDeleteThe study also said the area could support 15 more stores, and that we should get something like an applebees and another national chain, as well as a shoe store and other retail stores.
Some of those were coming with the package.
But we spent a lot of money to get that report, and we did not heed the advice.
Should we spend another $30,000 or so on another study so we can ignore that too.
Did anyone actually see a piece of paper from Lowes that said they would build a store here if we gave them a Tif? I never did, and besides I talked to a person who knew someone in the Lowes management, who stated they were not interested in putting a store 30 miles from one that was just hanging on by it's teeth. We got Wal Mart first because we gave them everything,then they did the Winfield store on their own money. I would support a Tif for industry but not retail.The only winner here is ACI and the developer.Since Ark City is going to be a retirement community there will be hot competition to be a door greeter at all of the box stores.
ReplyDeleteJJ, Missed the "press release"? Surely Chief Wallace sent you a press release about the "gun parts", that Mel Kuhn ordered and delivered to him. You know those that Wallace implied he was lying about. Just so you know Mr. 6:43 The part Mell ordered that he knew so much about, was the WRONG PART! Seems Mell dosen't know everything. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. And also get this the tiff money was not going to lowes! it goes to the developer. Get your facts right!
ReplyDeleteWe don't have to be a retirement community. We can be a progressive community with new hope and visions or we can wallow in what we can't do. Lowe's wouldn't be spending time and money to consider this community if they weren't interested. They are also smart enough NOT to bring a business to town to fail. Let's give them a chance to see what they may have in mind for us BEFORE we shut them down.
ReplyDeleteMell ordered the wrong part for a gun that is going to be traded off any time? HAHAHAHA Who's money did he use? His own? The City's? Please elaborate.
ReplyDeleteJJ, you should find out the facts on this one. Sounds like a good story.
Poster at 7:10 said the TIF money was going to the developer, not to Lowes.
ReplyDeleteTHis is very true, and that is why people say that Lowes was not coming in the first place. Lowes could truthfully say it had no plans to come to Ark City, because it did not
The developer is the one with the plans.
But at the same time, businesses are usually not very willing to reveal their plans anyway.
but, the developer had something worked out with a lowes.
Ill check on the gun part thing. Does sound interesting.
You know, it sounds to me like people that are against the tif are against progress. If you going to get anywhere in this town, there is gonna have to be incentives. Some times we have to gamble and take a roll of the dice to get anywhere. Ok, Walmart came in and usually you have lots of new retail wanting to come in. How many new stores are there since then? Two that I can think of. Maybe because of the economy, maybe not. Start building retail and one might have a chance of industry putting AC back in the game.
ReplyDeleteIt is easy for people to say that Lowes was not coming because we did not get to hear the entire plan. If you do some research and ask the right questions, you will find that there were letters of commitment to our community for several retailers. These were not revealed because they were the next phase of the proposal that we did not get to hear! Again the facts were twisted, Lowes would have paid full taxes just like any other retailer in town. The taxes generated from lowes would have been used to pay off the infrastructure. Lowes was coming on "their own dime"
ReplyDeleteIf people didn't want to shop there, don't. But don't keep the rest of us in the cave with you.
ReplyDeletethen move to a cave free area
ReplyDelete