Im sure you have heard to rumors that he was born in africa where his parents lived at one time.
Here is the link
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/25444.html
Ive not seen the evidence one way or the other. But the thing is, if you say something loud enough and long enough, people will start believing it.
This is off topic, but I'd seriously like some debate on this topic.
ReplyDeleteI have several friends who talk about Muslims, and the Quran, and how intolerant they are, and how zealous. Several cite the Quran, and it's call to "kill the infidel."
What then do we make of Christian scripture that calls for the same?
Deuteronomy 13:6
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known,
7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other),
8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him.
9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.
10 Stone him to death...
Seems like a pretty clear command to me. A mandate even...
Very interesting. I am sure JJ or Ralph or someone will tell you it is out of context or something. But it is truly very clear. Evil, hate, intollerance, and condone violence and murder of those different that Christians.
ReplyDeleteBut in the New Testament:
ReplyDeleteI Corinthians 13: 1-13
I think the difference is made more clear!
Ok. Could you also explain how some people can be so open minded, loving, caring ... yet kill unborn babies and brag about having made a "choice" and hate anyone who questions whether that might not be a good thing to do?
ReplyDeleteThe difference is how the scriptures are understood. The verses you quoted are from the old covenant, and are jewish scriptures. The christian scriptures are the NEW testament, which have no wordage like that at all.
You have to try to understand the times. People used to kill each other over religion. It happened a lot. People used to also practice slavery and thought it was good. Women used to be considered property etc.
The problem with the radical muslims is that they have taken a few of their scriptures out of context, and re interpreted them in a wrong way. They have hijacked their religion and are using it for political means.
To debate this you need to understand some of the history of all three religions, as well as some history of the world and development of religion and theology.
Are you really interested in studying the question?
More interested than you can imagine.
ReplyDeleteBefore we begin, am I to understand that you believe the OT no longer has any authority over us?
Or that God was one way pre Jesus, and another post?
We as Christians have had our own sordid history.
Emperor Constantine, the person largely responsible for our creeds and dogma converted because he wished to be absolved of guilt for the murder of his family, and was only baptised on his death bed so that he could continue to sin with impunity.
Heretics were executed over semantics.
Protestant Reformer John Calvin had Servetus burned alive for the heresey of believing that Jesus was the Son of the Eternal God rather than the Eternal Son of God.
Can you imagine?
Martin Luther, another "hero of the faith," wrote:
“Heretics are not to be disputed with, but to be condemned unheard, and whilst they perish by fire, the faithful ought to pursue the evil to its source, and bathe their heads in the blood of the Catholic bishops, and of the Pope, who is the devil in disguise.”
Christianity was used to justify slavery, and conquest...
Augustine taught that slavery was God's will and that Christianity did not make slaves free but made good slaves out of bad ones. (The City of God 19.5)
Slaves were used to build churches in early American History...
In 1634 the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote , as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, (which they were deliberetly given by the English) so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." He called this a sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God"
Indians were forced to convert, or were killed...
The inquisitions, Salem Witch Trials...
This list is by no means exhaustive, in fact it goes on and on...
You say, "To debate this you need to understand some of the history of all three religions, as well as some history of the world and development of religion and theology."
Which part do I need to understand more fully?
Ok. Could you also explain how some people can be so open minded, loving, caring ... yet kill unborn babies and brag about having made a "choice" and hate anyone who questions whether that might not be a good thing to do?
ReplyDelete************************************************
Are you really trying to turn this into an Anti Abortion thread?
You have to try to understand the times. People used to kill each other over religion. It happened a lot. People used to also practice slavery and thought it was good. Women used to be considered property etc.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the radical muslims is that they have taken a few of their scriptures out of context, and re interpreted them in a wrong way. They have hijacked their religion and are using it for political means.
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Perhaps the Muslim faith hasn't undergone a "Reformation" yet, as has the Christian faith.
We certainly have taken our share of scripture out of context, proof texting to push one political agenda or another. We may not be killing each other, but we still use scripture to justify our intolerance for each other.
There will always be extremists doing extreme things, that is why they are called extremists.
ReplyDeleteBut what you guys need to understand is the times people live in.
I really dont think you can judge history by todays standards.
I see you mentioning christians saying bad things, yet you dont mention the same things from other religions, and non religions throughout history.
You also fail to mention that these bad things make up about 1 percent of the text, and about 99 percent of the text is about loving each other.
You also fail to grasp the idea of context.
A minority of radical muslims have overtaken and hijacked their religion. Worldwide, most muslims are not in favor of the terrorism being spread by the extremists.
Every group has its extremists.
There are athiests who would jail all christians immediately if given the chance, and maybe even execute them. Dont kid yourself :)
How appropriate a post on birthers draws anti-abortionists....
ReplyDeleteYou also fail to grasp the idea of context.
ReplyDeleteA minority of radical muslims have overtaken and hijacked their religion. Worldwide, most muslims are not in favor of the terrorism being spread by the extremists.
Every group has its extremists.
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I grasp the idea of context perfectly.
The point you make is the same point I am trying to make. Scripture (all scripture, Muslim, Hindu, Christian...,)is all writen within a particular context, and then read and understood within another.
I believe much of scripture was written to justify some pretty abhorent behavior.
It is not inerrant or infalliable.
God did not speak from heaven and say "write this down."
Scripture was not dictated word for word, and preserved in its entirety. It was inspired. God revealed God's nature to humankinds heart.
Sometimes they got it right.
Often they got it very wrong....
Well we dont agree on that. :)
ReplyDeleteIt has been preserved remarkably well though. If you studied it you would be amazed.
Even scholars who do not believe in religion, will admit that the scriptures of all three religions have been preserved extremely well.
You say these things with such confidence. Yet If I say I believe it is inspired ... you will say I am intolerant. hmmmm Yet. I have evidence. What do you have?
Sure bad things have been done in the name of religion, and they still are.
Bad things have also been done in the name of atheism. What does that prove?
It was christians continually speaking out that ended slavery in the U.S. It was christians who ran the underground railroad that helped slaves escape.
If you look at the whole picture, a lot more good has been done because of religion than bad.
How many atheists take in homeless battered women? How many atheists give food to the hungry?
Maybe you should consider why Christians make you so mad. Why are you so intent on putting down Christians? Do you put down people of other religions? Just some questions.....
Often they got it very wrong....
ReplyDeletehow do you know?
ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
ReplyDeleteWell we dont agree on that. :)
ReplyDeleteIt has been preserved remarkably well though. If you studied it you would be amazed.
Even scholars who do not believe in religion, will admit that the scriptures of all three religions have been preserved extremely well.
You say these things with such confidence. Yet If I say I believe it is inspired ... you will say I am intolerant. hmmmm Yet. I have evidence. What do you have?
Maybe you should consider why Christians make you so mad. Why are you so intent on putting down Christians? Do you put down people of other religions? Just some questions.....
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JJ Christians don't make me mad. I consider myself to be a Christian, take my studies very seriously, and in fact am a seminary student about 27 credits away from graduation. I pastor a small church in the area, and speak out against people of all faiths that are closed minded and intolerant. Even within my own denomination. I too believe the Bible was inspired, just not the final arbitar of truth.
I do not believe it has been preserved "remarkably well." And, I have problems with how it was put together, and why. Who decided what was cannon and what was not? Was it based on antiquity? Apostolic authorship? Clearly, books were included based on these claims, but we now know they were included by error. Many books are not as old as once thought. others were not written by who we thought. Why were some books included and not others?
I have chosen Christianity as the religion from which to live out my faith. I just think we need to be respectfull of other faiths that contain truths, look for that which we agree on, and build community from there.
Why are we so intent with trying to divide, or focus on those things which Christ did not think important?
It's not that I don't believe in sin, or that I think we will not be held accountable for our actions, but I do believe we will not be judged by who well we memorized scripture, or kept law and doctrine. "We are required to do justice,love mercy, and walk humbly with our God." We are called to "love one another."
ReplyDeleteI believe we will be judged by how we treat the poor, the hungry, the widow, those in prision. When we exploit others for our gain, I believe it grieves God, and yet we do it all the time.
Whether we are the CEO of Wal-Mart, or we just shop at his store. When I buy a .99 cent candy bar, or a $12.00 pair of chinos, when I buy a cup of coffee for $1.50 someone had to be exploited for me to buy cheap and live in realative comfort. I enjoy my lifestyle on the sweat of others who work for less than substinance wages in deplorable conditions with out health care. Don't you think that grievs God? Don't you think the Church should be claaing for all of us to change our ways, and cry for change? But we don't. Because that is a hard sell.
We would much rather beat up on gays, and youn unwed mothers who made a mistake...
Ok I understand you a bit better now.
ReplyDeleteSee below
>>
do not believe it has been preserved "remarkably well." And, I have problems with how it was put together, and why. Who decided what was cannon and what was not?
>
Well you have studied. The "church" did gather in abourt 400 a.d. and cannonized the scripture. Much has been written about why each book was chosen, and why each one was rejected.
But the thing is, they really didnt "do" anything. I doubt at the time that anyone was surprised at all by what was chosen.
There are lists of scriptural books from as early as 250 a.d., showing what was "accepted" at the time as inspired. It was not until 150 years later that it became official, but most of the books were widely accepted well before that.
I do disagree with your premise here.
There is history that shows how well it has been preseved.
The selection of books was more a general acceptance over time ... not some arbitrary decision made by a group somewhere.
We see that the cannonization happened in 390, yet there is a new testament complete, with all the books we have today and no others, from as early as 200 a.d. ...
I just dont see how you can claim it is not well preserved in the face of all the historical evidence to the contrary.
:)
>>>
but we now know they were included by error. Many books are not as old as once thought.
>>
What evidence do you have for this?
all of the NT books were written by 100 a.d., there is external evidence for every one of them..
What proof is there that any were included by error... what.. someone accidentally sent one to the webmaster.. (inside joke)
>>>
others were not written by who we thought. Why were some books included and not others?
>>
There are only two in the NT of questionable origin.
There are mountains of literature and historical evidence for why the books were chosen. When they were cannonized, only two were even disputed ... revelation and iii john.
>>>
I have chosen Christianity as the religion from which to live out my faith. I just think we need to be respectfull of other faiths that contain truths, look for that which we agree on, and build community from there.
>>
No argument there.
I agree
Why are we so intent with trying to divide, or focus on those things which Christ did not think important?
>
indeed :)
Looks to me like JJ has met his match.
ReplyDeleteI think religion is all BS anyway, so I am just enjoying the back and forth. haha
Looks to me like JJ has met his match.
ReplyDeleteI think religion is all BS anyway, so I am just enjoying the back and forth. haha
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I don't believe it is a contest to be one, or that JJ has "met his match." I respect JJ, and think he is a good and decent person. He is well educated, and believes like I did for years, and like most still do.
Who knows, I may be VERY wrong. I'm willing to entertain that possibility. I do know that I haven't got it all figured out, and the truth probably lies somewhere between the two extremes.
And yeah, I tend to agree with you religion is all BS...
Sorry, should have said, "contest to be won..."
ReplyDelete"When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That is my religion."
ReplyDelete-Abraham Lincoln
What does any of this have to do with the subject of "birthers"? Obama could shut down the controversy by simply proving his citizenship. Show us the REAL birth certificate!
ReplyDeleteIt has nothing to do with Obama birthers, but seeing as you are the first post on the topic (after 20 others, and 3 days,) I would say this is a non issue.
ReplyDeleteWell at least someone did finally post a comment.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I just have no control here.
I think the whole thing is just politics. Didn't hawaii officials confirm he was born there?
My question would be, if both his parents were citizens, then his place of birth should not matter. The constitution says natural born citizen, it does not say whether or not it has to be in the country.
But the question of why he wont just produce the paperwork, is valid.
On the "Obama Birthers": I am certainly no fan of any part of the Obama administration. That declaration made, I really think that given the high amount of vitriol and hateful political games of "gotcha" that were played during the presidential primaries, Hillary's camp would surely have proved Obama's citizenship was a disqualifier early on, had the rumor any basis in fact. I'm also sure that someone inside of the “Clinton War Machine” or its minions have enabled, if not outright promoted negative rumors of all kinds that find traction in the hearts and minds of the people that embrace EVERY conspiracy theory posed, under the banner of big boy politics.
ReplyDeleteOn religion: Henry David Thoreau said, "It’s not what you look at, it’s what you see."
Mankind's inability to pursue empathy over history and tradition, combined with humanity's instinctually ingrained tribalism, insures that we will always look for, and find what differentiates us from others before any attempt to seek commonality. Human nature and the drive to survive have long outlived mankind's triumph over natural hardship. It seeks an adversary or challenge to vanquish. That nature persists in modern civilization in spite of every religion and tradition that have been created, adopted, or embraced by societies across the globe to control and restrain itself. War creates warriors, which create wars to fight, which creates better warriors, and so on and so on...
Any time you have a dynamic force, (population) and a static force, (space and resources), there will be conflict. Conflict needs no justification to exist, but civilization does. All religions provide both inspiration and restraint for its followers. The fallibility of humanity has always exploited "interpretation" of its various religions to avoid personal accountability and responsibility for violating restraint, to pursue inspiration of aspiration. It’s the whole "sins of the father" premise in action.
But then, that’s just the opinion of this fallible spec of humanity.
Good thoughtful post.
ReplyDeleteI dont really understand why every group wants to "force" its views on other groups. The atheists talk a lot about that, but they are often even more intollerant than the worst fundamentalist.
I dont like the argument that all philosophies are equal either. To me that trivializes them all. Someone is right, someone is wrong, but I am not qualified to say which is which, though i may have opinions in that regard.
So JJ,
ReplyDeleteI know this is a continuation of the religion debate on your blog!
But, what is your view of the story of the Tower of Babel in the Old Testament book of Genesis?
When the world was of one accord and all the people spoke one language!
I think the Bible accurately describes the Human condition and all its endeavors throughout history. Times may have changed with knowledge and technology but I think the condition of mankind remains consistant!
what is your view of the story of the Tower of Babel in the Old Testament book of Genesis?
ReplyDelete>>
I get in trouble with some people, but ... i think some of the very old stories were told to make a spiritual point. This may be the case here. There is a great spiritual lesson here in this story. TO me, if you take it as a literal story, and dont get the spiritual meaning, you miss the point entirely.
But, if everyone did come from Adam and Eve, it would not be that hard to imagine them all together in one place and not spreading out. They would have needed some "encouragement" to do so.
..
>>>
I think the Bible accurately describes the Human condition and all its endeavors throughout history. Times may have changed with knowledge and technology but I think the condition of mankind remains consistant! \>>
..
Yes, i agree with that totally, that is why i say it doesnt matter if the OT stories are actual events that happened or not.
But thats a dangerous way to look at it too. Where do you draw the line of whether it is an actual story of an actual event ... or a story to make a point?
Usually you can tell by context.
But the thing is, the human condition has not changed from the beginning.
We have the same issues they had 5,000 years ago in Egypt.
Well I agree in part - but I think the lesson in the story was that their intent was to build a tower to reach "Heaven". All the people were motivated to achieve the same purpose and mission which in reality had no value.
ReplyDelete(Do you see some of the same similarities in what people are proposing today?)
Now we know that at some point the continents were probably connected possibly into one solid
land mass. They are still moving today!
So a great event that caused their separation isn't inconceiveable - but the change in the languages is a different matter to consider!
So is it impossible that a God that created the universe could accomplish such a task.
or
Is it mans inabiltiy to convey natural events as some would say and then make them spiritual?
I think unless you have accepted the fact that the God of the OT is the same God as today you would opt for the logical approach to explain the event. If in your own mind you accept it as an event at all!
Now to your debating friend who is a pastor - you may choose Christianity as your religon but
you need to ask God what he means and not decide for yourself what he intended. Otherwise, you risk becoming a False Profit (False teacher).
I bet He will tell you if you ask!
The biblical story does say all the land was together in one place. The great flood could have separated the continents, or it could have taken thousands of years. I don't believe this event happened 6000 years ago.
ReplyDeleteBut my point is, that if we only think of it as an actual historic event, we will miss the message.
Could have happened just like that.
I agree that we need to ask God what God means. At the same time, God gave us a book and a brain. :) So the two together usually work out pretty good.
James, I agree completley.
ReplyDeleteIt is difficult to prove much if not all of the OT. Some parts of it are obviously literary works used to make a spieitual point. Much, if not all of it is mythology. Could it have happened?
Sure. Does it have to have? I don't think so.
Mythology may not be factual, or historically accurate, but that does not mean it is not true.
Myths are used to teach truths.
The Tower of Babel is most likely myth used to point out the folly of mans attempt to gain equality with God.
ReplyDeleteI dont really understand why every group wants to "force" its views on other groups.
ReplyDelete----------------------
Well I think there is a larger underlying question that begs to be answered!
Throughout the Bible God segregated and rescued
his people and believers from various groups of non-believers.
Jesus came not to unite the world but to futher divide it - he even said he would divide families!
So, if throughout history God has by his commandments and doctrine has segregated his people-
Who is trying to unite all the people through common beliefs tolerence and acceptance? For he is a worthy adversary!
So JJ,
ReplyDeleteI waited till the post entry was gone from the front page so it didn't further offend any readers of your blog.
But, to get back to the tower of Babel!
In the book of Enoch there was a different description of the world in the beginning. One that would definately defy the theory of evolution as it is taught today! But it does seem to be more Mythology than fact.
But, the Tower of Babel was after the great flood and was the result of the peole being led to achieve something that had no value. Was it their desire to reunite with God. One has to wonder if some of the fallen angels who could not return to Heaven had inspired that act.
Thats the part where I think we have trouble
when we use only our brains to interpret the Bible.
I don't think God wanted to destroy the world again at that time and if the Bible is true he wouldn't do agin by Water. BTW: He destroyed it to rid it of the Giants who were created by the fallen angels. Didn't he?
So when God dispersed the People and confused their language was he really working to change the direction of mankind and also oppose the leadership that had them choosing a path of action that had no value? Did God do it to punish the People?
I think all to often we forget their are opposing forces at work in the World. Even if we can't see them except as the result of their influence and the result of Peoples actions.
I think those opposing froces want to rob God of his value and influence on earth and unite the People to build another Tower of Babel.
So who is it that wants all the People to be united? Is it God or forces who oppose Him?
What say you?
Good post. Maybe ill write about the tower of babel tomorrow morning for my weekly religion post:)
ReplyDeleteI dont think unity is the real issue. The real issue is one of pride. The people wanted to make a name for themselves, as it says. God had told them to spread out over the earth, but they were building a monument to themselves instead.
They were not trying to reach god at all. They were trying to glorify themselves.
I think that is the spiritual message of the story.
Its the same type thing as Cain and Abel. One brought acceptable sacrifice and one did not. One did what God said, one insisted on doing it his own way.
Of course the flood was before Babel. I just meant that the separation fo continents could have started then, and would have been well under way by the time of Babel.
I agree that we are always starting new towers of babel.
I think today it is the idea that all religions are the same. Here is where "unity" does become a problem.
To say that all religions are the same, trivializes them all, and makes them all unimportant ... thus making God unimportant and pushed aside.
You could still have unity and have each religion have its own distinctive nature.
The new age movement is the new tower of babel.
Its all touchy feely with no basis in fact.
I like what you said about using your brain only to interpret the bible. This is very true, but i think the brain still needs to be engaged :)
Its very new age-ey to get into "what it means to me" sort of thing, and to say all interpretations are equallly valid.
Ther is a plain literal meaning of the text. That is where the brain comes in. That is usually pretty straightforward.
Making that fit with the rest is sometimes hard, but .. i think we can generally agree on the plain meaning of the text.
From there you get to the spiritual meaniing, which is where we have disagreements.
I think those disagreements are ok.
Its all a part of the development of theology.
Its interesting to look back over the centuries and see how certain passages were interpreted..
anyways.
thats what i think . :)
Well I must admit I am no theologian but do find myself wandering to the Dead Sea Scholls websites on occasion and reading various articles on mans interpretation of man and God!
ReplyDeleteI think you have answered you own question though on why each religion wants to press its beliefs on the other they are bulding their own towers - except I don't think by the Christian interpretation there are that many other options. Jesus came and drew a line in the sand he didn't build a Tower but showed a clear path to Heaven to include All the people who choose it!