The Supreme Court is hearing a case about a cross in a remote area of a remote park in California. It was erected 80 years ago to honor WW1 vets, but now there are objections and suits.
Two observations.
The Obama administration is supporting the symbol. Will this make the rounds of conservatives who love to rip obama as anti christian etc., ?
and second ... separation of church and state does not mean separations FROM religion. There are people who just want to remove any public symbol of religion from public view. They would probably like to take them off your private property as well.
here is the link
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091007/ap_on_go_su_co/us_supreme_court_mojave_cross
Seperation of church and state does mean seperation from religion. If you have a symbol of one religion without regard to all others, that is wrong. And you could never put a symbol for all religions up on public land.
ReplyDeleteSo, don't put any.
I am so tired of this....... This was a cross put up for WW1 vets, in 1934. It has been maintained and cared and suddenly we are filling up the court system with this. they have traded land for it. Giving 5 Ac of land for the 1 ac that the cross is standing on Congress approved the trade and the legal organization that funding this fight got that put on hold. America is slipping away, one right at a time,
ReplyDeleteFrom what I understand, the "Christ died for the ungodly" rock sign, and crosses on Scripture Hill is on public property. Anyone know for sure? Anyone have a problem with this if it is?
ReplyDeleteSo, don't put any
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So why stop there - lets take away your right to post an opinion on a blog or anywhere else for that matter - because its about freedom!
What parts of freedom do you think we should keep/restrict? Then who should decide?
This blog is not government property. Separation of church and state was put in place to keep government from favoring one religion over another. Would you rather you were told by each new President which god to worship?
ReplyDeletePutting up a cross 80 years ago in a remote part of the desert is hardly forcing religion on anyone.
ReplyDeleteGee dude (ette), we need to make you a Czar! the new public stimulus will be to remove all the religous emblems from all Public and Private buildings inside and out throughout the country! That ought to take a awhile and think of the jobs we would create!
ReplyDeleteThe separation of church and state is about restricting the freedom of individuals - we are the Government (of the People)!
Its intent is to restrict religions from influencing or lobbying the elected officials and to remove their tax exempt status penalize them if they engage in politics!
From that we want to remove religion from all of society?
What planet do you live on!
Just in case you missed my point! We are a Government of the People, by the People and for the People! Represented by elected and appointed officials!
ReplyDeleteYou can't separate the Government (the people)
from their religions!
You can reduce the influence of religions over Governing officials! So that they better and more fairly represent and protect the peoples
right to practice/follow beliefs!
The original statement of separation of church and state was made by the founding fathers and was in direct reference to the influence that the Church of England had over the government!
That same type religious influence should not occur in America!
So, we are not a Government of Judges, Lawyers,
representaives and preachers!
We are a Government of the People! All of them/us!
They/We should have the Freedom to decide!
Oh, one last thing: Look at your money and a few other key things.
ReplyDeleteI can't bring myself to understand why the Supreme Court would waste its time with these type decisions.
If In God WE Trust is on money the Cross should stay in the Cemetary!
AND
we need to seriously consider changing those that represent US the Government!
Why is it that we are losing respect around the World as a leader?
You are absolutely correct, we SHOULD have the freedom to decide, and that includes deciding NOT to be religious. Therefore, if our government is flaunting a religion, in this case Christianity, then it is in essence claiming that Christianity is the preference. If there were a giant pentagram, the symbol for the Wiccan religion, on the golf course hill, I bet you would not be on here whining about your freedom being taken away. You would be at city hall with your torches and pitch forks demanding it be removed.
ReplyDeleteCemetary!
ReplyDelete--------
Sorry, Park!
You are absolutely correct, we SHOULD have the freedom to decide, and that includes deciding NOT to be religious
ReplyDelete----------
But, your not asking to place a religious smybol in a public place! Only to remove any that offend you!
The christians own the park just like the Atheist or Satanist - you don't really want to place your symbol in the park just diminish the Christians!
Besides, the Satanist make their signs on streets and abandon buildings!
BUT, no one is forcing you to be a Christian,
Muslim, Hindu, or any other religion in the USA.
OR preventing you from practicing your religon as long as it doesn't cross the lines of the law or practices inhumane rituals! Try that in another country!
So if the star of David was on your park, with no other religious symbol, you would be okay with that? The point is, you cannot cater to one and not the rest. If they want to erect a symbol for every other religion practiced in this country, end believe me, there are some real doozies, then that would be fine. If they don't want to do that, they should take the lone symbol down. If there were a gold Budha at the courthouse, would people be fighting to keep it there like they have with the ten commandments? The point is, it is biased toward a certain religion, and that is a violation of the law..
ReplyDeleteCheck these out.
http://listverse.com/2009/09/10/10-extremely-weird-religions/
Well you make a good point! But, at least for today the Government of the People is still a majority of Christians! Or professes that!
ReplyDeleteI think the Federal Government should defer those decisions to the local ones (governments) and the will of the majority should be heard and prevail!
Whether you realize it or not the Mormons pretty much are the Government in Utah. I believe they even do automatic 10% deductions from payroll for the Church offering.
But, consider this: Where do you draw the line!
Should I petition the Courts to have any tattoos or jewelry that refer to Satan, Death or Christianity or any other cult or religion to be covered in Public? Meaning you can't wear shorts or have to wear long sleeves or even a face mask!
OR
Do you think they would let me hang a cross in some of the other countries temples or mosques?
maybe even the ones here in the USA!
AND
No i don't think the majority of people in A.C. would support a Pentagram on the Golf Course Hill! nor should they have to consider it!
but, to make it even more interesting maybe JJ could help us define a religon vs. a cult or a modern day trend!
The simple definition, a cult is an offshot of one religion, that has not yet gained popular acceptance and recognition.
ReplyDeleteChristianity was a jewish cult in the beginning.
The protestant movement was a catholic cult at its beginning etc.
Cults dont have to come from other religions, but the often do.
but the difference is just one of recognition.
"But, consider this: Where do you draw the line!
ReplyDeleteShould I petition the Courts to have any tattoos or jewelry that refer to Satan, Death or Christianity or any other cult or religion to be covered in Public? Meaning you can't wear shorts or have to wear long sleeves or even a face mask!"
See, that's where your logic is faulty, because we are not talking about "in public", we are talking about on Government owned land and buildings such as national parks, court houses, both local and federal, etc etc. No one is telling us what we can or cannot display in "public" because we have freedom of speech (to an extent).
And the word "Cult" is a derogatory term for a small religion by people from a big religion. People from big religions consider little religions cults, and people of no religion consider all religions to be cults.
Does the size of one's religion, church, or steeple make their religion better? The bible says where any two or more are gathered, doesn't it?
But, your real objection is to the symbol - that Cross in a park! What would you suggest be done in a Public Cemetary?
ReplyDeleteI really don't see it as an issue of the Christians wanting to deface all the Public land or properties with Crosses. Although, if you look around there are plenty that were provided by previous generations. You want to erase all recognition that we evolved as/from a Christian Nation!
That obviously won't be a problem in the future
with our present trends in Government of the people representation and the fading will of the People!
But, then we'll be just like all the other Godless Countries! You probably won't have any choices at all!
The First Amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...
ReplyDeleteThe term "Wall of seperation" does not occur in our constitution, and the seperation we believe exists was never intended. In fact,in 1789 Congress declared: "Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever beencouraged" Religion can and rightfully should influence our government. Our government on the other hand cannot, nor should it favor one religion over another. It should not establish a state religion, nor should it influence religious practice.
No one has answered the question. Is Scripture Hill owned by the city?
ReplyDeleteThis county was founded with a Christian belief.
ReplyDeletethey took prayer out of the school because one person wanted to see if they could take away from hundreds of thousands. Now we can't pray at schools or school events, can't hold a prayer group even if they wanted to. But we can have Christian Peace Officers Group, made up of city and county peace officers. We need prayer and We need the values that Christanity teaches. I would love prayer back in the school and if that offends you and you don't want your child there, or your tax dollars there then start another public school system and you can not prayer in your school and you can have only the knowledge of math and science.
This debate was started because it could be. And that the way America is, it listens, and affords everyone the opportunity to be heard but when one voice can silence thousands there is nothing fair about that.
Remove the one Cross on the hill,and then they will say remove all the Crosses at Arlington National Cemetery. How and why can a few force their will on so many? Because we won't stand up to them.
ReplyDeletePrayer being taken out of school was not one person's idea. Prayer was taken out of school because people of other religions were being indoctrinated to the teacher's beliefs, and that is wrong. I wouldn't want my children being led in prayer by a muslim teacher, or any teacher for that matter, as I think religion is a private decision. That is the reason for the seperation of church and state.
ReplyDeleteAnd this country was not founded on religion. I wish people would quit saying that.
ReplyDelete11:26 am
ReplyDeleteI think that you have a valid point or two but I think that your passion is over riding your thought process. What is good for the goose is also good for the gander. If one group is allowed to pray or worship so must all other groups. And as for one person I can't remember her name but I know who you are talking about. I don't think it was just one person but she was very vocal.
I hope and yes pray that the High court does not order the cross taken down. I think sometimes that freedom gets in the way of being decent to one another. I can't imagine that the silence of that cross is hurting anyone, but taking it down is an injury to all who see, remember and understand.
The purpose of government is to protect the rights of the minority, and not to favor one group over another. We are not based on majority rule, never have been. Our government has always given, and I pray will continue to give, voice to the voiceless, and equal protection under the law, no matter your minority.
ReplyDeleteWhen America is finally done in and dead, it will be written on our tombstone: "They were politically correct"
ReplyDeleteI think it would be real interesting to put up a sign from a different religion, and see what happens?
ReplyDeleteWould there be the same attacks?
"I think it would be real interesting to put up a sign from a different religion, and see what happens?"
ReplyDeleteJust make sure it's nothing against Muslims. They will burn the place down. Remember the cartoon? Remember the little boy's stuffed bear? Seriously. They attack Christians because they know Christians won't do anything.
D.Q.
"I think it would be real interesting to put up a sign from a different religion, and see what happens?
ReplyDeleteWould there be the same attacks?"
Why, do you really think it's just an anti-christian thing? The whole point is that NO religious signs should be on government land. It wasn't singled out because it was christian. It was singled out because it is illegal.
You christians sure do like to play the persecuted ones though, don't you. You're so put upon.
When was the last time a christian lost their job because their boss found out they were christians? When was the last time christians were discriminated against in this country?? It happens to people of "lesser" religions and atheists all the time.
I think the religious right has forced it's hand one too many times and issues like this are the resulting push back. It's intolerance come full circle perhaps? Do unto others and what not.
ReplyDeleteYou should walk around Washington D.C. a little, and look at all the government buildings that have Christian influence in/on their buildings. Are we going to start tearing down bulding in DC, and giving them facelifts because they have some Chriatian symbol or remark on them?
ReplyDeleteFrom what I understand, the "Christ died for the ungodly" rock sign, and crosses on Scripture Hill is on public property. Anyone know for sure? Anyone have a problem with this if it is?
ReplyDeleteOctober 7, 2009 3:08 PM
IT IS PUBLIC LAND
D.Q said... "Just make sure it's nothing against Muslims. They will burn the place down. Remember the cartoon? Remember the little boy's stuffed bear? Seriously. They attack Christians because they know Christians won't do anything."
ReplyDeleteIt can't be denied that there are radical fundalmentalists within the Muslim faith. There are /were within Christianity as well. Remember the Crusades, the Inquisition, the "conversion" of Native Americans...?
I think we may be witnessing the beginings of a Muslim Reformation, similar to the Christian Reformation some 500 years ago...
It will be interesting to watch.
I think we may be witnessing the beginings of a Muslim Reformation, similar to the Christian Reformation some 500 years ago...
ReplyDeleteIt will be interesting to watch.
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I think that is a good observation - alot of the other religions that exist in America - do not operate the same as they do in their countries of origin. Part of that is the culture in America. Because of our Government they have the FREEDOM of choices and laws of protection!
They don't have to wear veils on their faces or cover their bodies and we don't tolerate inhumane treatment of indivduals that exists in other cultures.
But, there will always be that type of element in privacy of their homes or denomination.
AND
There will always be a trend among religions to make people conform to whatever the belief systems and rituals are of that faith!
But, WHERE FREEDOM EXISTS - SO DOES CHOICE
(even if you get fired and find another
job or start your own business!)
We spend/waste way too much time and money trying to get our own way! The beautiful thing about democracy and AMERICA is that they can all exist - if we just try to get along!
Anonymous said "...The beautiful thing about democracy and AMERICA is that they can all exist - if we just try to get along!"
ReplyDeleteSo the city should have no problem when I call this afternoon and ask for a hill to put my sign on?
"ALLAH IS GREATER"
"ALLAH IS GREATER"
ReplyDelete------------
Do you really think that is representative of the Greater Population of Ark City?
I kind of like:
"GOD IS GOOD"
But, I doubt you would want to compromise!
Allah is Greater
ReplyDeleteIf you pay for it, and pay for the installation and upkeep, i certainly would not have a problem with it. :)
James Jordan said...
ReplyDeleteAllah is Greater
"If you pay for it, and pay for the installation and upkeep, i certainly would not have a problem with it. :)"
James,
You really wouldn't have a problem with it?
On public land?
What if it was a sign that said "Give your life to satan?"
As an aside...
Who pays for the upkeep of Scripture Hill?
Who mows the grass, and paints the rocks, etc.? Just wondering?
Anonymous said, "...at least for today the Government of the People is still a majority of Christians! Or professes that!
ReplyDeleteI think the Federal Government should defer those decisions to the local ones (governments) and the will of the majority should be heard and prevail!"
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It's not outside the realm of possibility that sometime in the not to distant future, we might find ourselves living in a country where Christians are not the majority. Will you still insist that the will of the majority prevail then?
Anonymous said, "But, your not asking to place a religious smybol in a public place! Only to remove any that offend you!"
ReplyDeleteActually, I believe the suit was brought because a group asked to build a shrine on the same property, and were denied.
They wanted equal access, and to co-exist peacefully with the cross.
The government denied them that right.
onestone said...
ReplyDeleteRemove the one Cross on the hill,and then they will say remove all the Crosses at Arlington National Cemetery. How and why can a few force their will on so many? Because we won't stand up to them.
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That's just absurd.
Arlington offers 39 different symbols with which to adorn the graves of fallen heros. it is the families choice.
The park in question is not a cemetary, and other faiths have been denied the right to erect symbols of their own faith.
I guess in modern day society - someone is going to have to put a frisbie golf hole on top of that cross. Make it a functional part of the park.
ReplyDeleteMaybe even make the chain parts to resemble a crown of thorns.
You don't have a problem with frisbie golf do you?
Make it hole number 777!
I think I like defintion 4 the best...
ReplyDeleteWhich religious symbol would fit defintion 4?
Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
— re·li·gion·less adjective
It's not outside the realm of possibility that sometime in the not to distant future, we might find ourselves living in a country where Christians are not the majority. Will you still insist that the will of the majority prevail then
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That maybe true - or the population will just be so complaisant that they lose their FREEDOM.
Matbe someone like Chavez or Castro will come along and just make all the decisions for us!
Btw: Our lives on earth are really about seasons and choices. Seasons measured by the time of year as well as by age/maturity.
In the end be it our own life or when all seasons cease.
It is the God of the Bible who will reign!