A suspect is in custody, Scott Roeder, 51, of Merriman, Kansas, in the shooting death of George Tiller.
Already there are political ramifications. Here is a link to a good story on Time.com about that.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090601/us_time/08599190207700
The shooting was a terrible thing. No sane person would support that.
Pro-life groups are denouncing the shooting.
Christian groups are as well.
Here is a story in the Eagle about the suspect.
http://www.kansas.com/news/local/story/834448.html
The suspect is being linked to anti-government and extreme right wing groups. He has not been linked to any religious pro-life movements or protests.
"The suspect is being linked to anti-government and extreme right wing groups. He has not been linked to any religious pro-life movements or protests."
ReplyDeleteSo... How would you classify "Operation save America"? To me they are extreme rightwing pro-life RELIGIOUS people. You guys can sit here and spin this how you want- But at the end of the day he was still on their message boards talking about God and posting that he wanted all of them to go to Tiller's church. People have dug up a lot of RELIGIOUS pro-life post from this KILLER! This was planned and a lot more people are involved- The extreme rightwing people need to worry, Because all eyes are on you guys now. And you guys can try to distance yourselves from the hate, But your the creators, Your the ones on here saying how happy you are that a man is dead.
There is the problem. Extreme leftists are playing politics with a tragedy.
ReplyDeletePeople want to paint any religious person as a right wing terrorist, and it just isnt so.
So... How would you classify "Operation save America"? To me they are extreme rightwing pro-life RELIGIOUS people.
ReplyDelete>>
Anyone can talk about God. Anyone can claim to be a Christian.
As the scriptures say, "by their fruits you will know them."
That group does not claim to be religious. It is you that is making that claim.
Show me some religious groups that are approving of yesterday's murder. Where are the links?
James, I'm going to give myself a shameless plug here for my own blog. I've posted a topic on the Tiller Murder as well as my other stuff. While your talking politics, I'm talking the theological implications of what's happened.
ReplyDeleteOk, but you didnt put the address for your blog.
ReplyDeleteRalph's blog is at:
http://music4messiah.blogspot.com/
Have you not been to their website, JJ? You might check it out before you pathetically try to put me down for stating a fact. Like always, Your ill-informed. For someone who claims to "not be religious" they sure are throwing the scriptures around on their website- Along with crosses and other religious stuff, including a daily Bible reading schedule...And let's over look the fact that they claim on their site that "Operation Rescue/Operation Save America unashamedly takes up the cause of preborn children in the name of Jesus Christ. We employ only biblical principles. The Bible is our foundation"- But hey- What do I know.
ReplyDeleteThere WAS a reason you were fired- Your an idiot!
Perhaps what we are dealing with here are the consequences of free speech and those organizations who support hateful anti-choice language receiving backlash for their rhetoric.
ReplyDeleteIt's more then deserved.
I hope the next church group that decides to wave their 'Baby Killer' signs up and down Summit street will be looking across at a 'Tillers Killers' sign.
Is it fair? Depends on how you choose to frame the context.
Hey JJ- Glad you didn't treat Ralph the way you did when Byte posted about his blog. Your 101% Christian self tore into him like there was no tomorrow... Glad that your showing the commissioner some respect, Maybe you should start showing some to the "little people"- You know the ones that are beneath you.
ReplyDeleteByte posted about his blog. Your 101% Christian self tore into him like there was no tomorrow...
ReplyDelete?>>>
As I recall, at the time I did not know who Byte was, and all i did was question whether he or she should be doing that.
I didn't tear into him at all. And if you will recall, that same day, i said I was sorry and that it was ok.
I try to respect everyone.
There are no little people who are "beneath me."
Last I heard, ralph was not a commissioner. Did something happen while i was on vacation?
Hendricks: Tiller's killers were many
ReplyDeleteBy mid-afternoon, authorities reportedly had someone in custody in connection with the murder of Wichita abortion doctor George Tiller at his church on Sunday morning.
So far, we know very little about the suspect, other than that he's a man in his 50s and was driving a blue Ford when they stopped him outside Gardner.
However, the motive for the crime we can all surmise in light of the vitriolic campaign that has been waged against Tiller for more than two decades by anti-abortion groups.
And if we're right about that, then we already know the identities of his accomplices.
They include every one who has ever called Tiller's late term abortion clinic a murder mill.
Who ever called Tiller "Tiller the Killer."
The groups who spent decades fomenting hate toward a man who simply believed that he was serving a purpose by being one of the few doctors in the country performing late-term abortions.
Hate. Not heated opposition. Not strong disagreement.
But blind hatred.
The kind of hate that would prompt some maniac to take a gun into a church and shoot a man to death in front of friends and family.
His accomplices know they have blood on their hands, which might explain why they were quick to issue statements today expressing disapproval of Tiller's murder.
Among them, the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue.
"Operation Rescue denounces the killing of abortionist Tiller," read the headline of a new release posted on that group's website.
Those words drip with hypocrisy.
After all, it was Operation Rescue that coined the nickname "Tiller the Killer." It was Operation Rescue that was most responsible for ratcheting up the heated rhetoric toward Tiller over the past two decades.
The group issued the following statement today:
"We are shocked at this morning’s disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down. Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller’s family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in Jesus Christ."
Shocked? Are any of us really shocked that it would come to this after the many years of demonizing one man?
Certainly the group's founder, Randall Terry, didn't seem shocked when he issued a statement that, I would suggest, provides a truer sense of how the anti-abortion movement saw today's events:
"George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. I am more concerned that the Obama Administration will use Tiller's killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions. Abortion is still murder. And we still must call abortion by its proper name; murder.
Those men and women who slaughter the unborn are murderers according to the Law of God. We must continue to expose them in our communities and peacefully protest them at their offices and homes, and yes, even their churches."
I'd suggest that if anyone is in need of salvation right now it's the anti-abortion movement in Kansas and across the nation.
As Terry's statement makes clear, the same bullet that killed George Tiller also shattered the moral underpinnings of the movement that inspired its firing.
Silly me- Your right he isn't! Hahaha Anyways, That wasn't my point, But then again... You just proved my point with your last post!
ReplyDelete"And if we're right about that, then we already know the identities of his accomplices.
ReplyDeleteThey include every one who has ever called Tiller's late term abortion clinic a murder mill.
Who ever called Tiller "Tiller the Killer."
______________________________________________
AWESOME. Anyone who ever disliked killing babies is an accomplice to murder? Well, I always call Tiller "Tiller the Killer" simply because he was a mass murderer. And I will sleep like a baby tonight. Well, like a baby that Tiller didn't have the pleasure of cutting into little pieces and throwing out with the trash.
Just because something is legal does not make it right. As someone else pointed out, Hitler was acting under the law when he murdered the Jews during WW2.
And Byte daily has no room to talk about first amendment freedom when she censors anything that doesn't agree with her narrowminded, naive, idiotic view of the world.
You'll sleep like a baby because you are one, I got that opinion from your post when you started namecalling people. If anyone is narrowminded it's all of you who think that your opinion is the end all. So, Grow up! Oh and Dr. Tiller wasn't a murderer, It was legal.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all... Name calling? What post are you referring to? You do realize, in your infinite wisdom, that there is more than one person named "Anonymous" right? It's not like Anonymous Jones, or Anonymous Smith. It actually means that the person doesn't want to use their real name and is posting "Anonymously".
ReplyDeleteSecond of all, you people keep saying that Tiller was acting LEGALLY, yet you have no response to the fact that Hitler was also acting LEGALLY (man those Caps make me tingle) when he attempted genocide against the Jewish people. Why is that? Could it be that just because something is legal doesn't make it right?
So... Instead of talking about the issue at hand. The rightwing nutjobs are just going to keep bringing up Hitler. " Hey... Guys, If we talk about another awful thing that happened, Maybe they'll forget about the issue under which this post was made?" Hahaha Umm okay, Whatever. Can you discuss this without bringing that up? You guys just don't get it... Your comparing Dr. Tiller to Hitler. That's insane. It doesn't justify his murder and makes you like stupid for aguring it even as a point.
ReplyDeleteOh and I was referring to the post calling BD names. It was un-called for. Seriously.
Yep.. you just completely avoided the obvious question about whether legal equals right. Just like you have been all along.
ReplyDeleteAnd Byte daily is all I said and worse. Nothing chaps my hide more than people who talk of the first amendment and it's freedoms while censoring comments that don't agree with them. True proponents of the first amendment don't turn on their comment blocker so they can weed through and delete the posts they don't agree with. Just like D. Seaton.
Its not a question of weeding through the posts I don't agree with. I just won't have someone posting bad language or being spiteful.
ReplyDeleteWell... If your message board was being spammed, Then I think you would moderate your post, Too. I'm guessing that's the issue with BD. So, Why don't we leave him out of it and talk about the issue at hand- Abortion.
ReplyDeleteSo, Ralph McDonald is Byte Daily?
ReplyDeleteand talk about the issue at hand- Abortion.
ReplyDeleteIt hasn't been that long ago that I was a bystander to a conversation regarding an abortion.
The issue at hand was regarding a husband and wife and the fact that they were pregnant. The husband claimed his wife had withheld the pregnancy from hin and was angey. He wanted it terminated because they couldn't afford anymore kids.
So, $900.00 and the problem was resolved!
As I recall it was 5 months along.
He was seeking affirmation that he had done the right thing from his peers.
What would have been your advise?
What would you have done?
It seems that to truly debate the issue you have to put yourself in those positions? Or avoid them! But, even the best laid plans require a decision when they go astray!
BTW: I am not a counselor or clergyman/women.
Ralph is NOT byte daily. Byte Daily is not ralph.
ReplyDeleteOn the example of the husband and wife, i can think of some reasons that abortion would be justified.
The example given does not seem justifiable to me. Just financial convenience is not a good enough reason, particularly at 5 months. 5 weeks maybe?
I would have advised he see a pastor or a counselor. What's done is done. He needs to repent and move on. He can be forgiven, that's the good news.
But there are examples where it would seem justifiable.
Rape, incest for a couple. Say a 12 year old who has been raped. Of if there was solid medical evidence that the baby would not live.
Or if the mothers life was truly in danger. (this is extremely rare and should have to be proven).
I just dont think convenience - cant afford any more babies - is legitimate.
Abortion is not murder? What is it? What is the blob inside the female human being carrying it? If it is not a tiny human being, what is it? If it is inside a pregnant mother and that pregnant mother is murdered and there is a conviction against the murderer for two murders, why would that be? Shouldn't it just be one murder? The other, couldn't you technically argue that the mother's family should pay the murderer a $900 fee? I would like some of the folks who are defending abortion to answer these questions. Maybe I'll learn something. I'm open minded.
ReplyDeleteThere is NO WAY Ralph McDonald is Byte Daily. No way.
ReplyDeleteIf it is inside a pregnant mother and that pregnant mother is murdered and there is a conviction against the murderer for two murders, why would that be?
ReplyDelete>>
In many states a person can be charged with two counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman. South Carolina is one. Ive heard of drunk drivers being charged with two counts of murder for killing a woman and her unborn child.
Ironically, if she had stopped at the abortion clinic before getting hit by the drunk driver, it would have been called choice.
Some good questions there.
Hard to answer.
Life begins at some point.
At some point a person attains rights. When is that point? and why?
I think you have a good valid point(s)! The problem arises when there is no clear direction as to what is right and wrong! However, we were given a compass and in many cases a conscience to guide us through life.
ReplyDeleteNo, we don't always choose the right thing and yes we know what's right! But, God knew/knows us too yet he still loves us.
So, when we choose to debate is it to make issue of our or others mistakes or to help them understand that they are loved!
It would be easy to say as some cultures or religions do that you are allowed no mistakes!
Christianity offers choices and grace!
Does God require the same from Christians as he does from NON-CHristians?
That story about the husband spending $900 to have his child murdered is so sad. I hope he regrets his decision. And not having enough money to raise it is no excuse. FIVE MONTHS along. god, that is pathetic that our country even allows people to choose that option at five months. This is what 20 weeks (five months) looks like:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-images-20-weeks
Can anyone here honestly say that that is not a human life simply because it hasn't breathed air yet?
I have to go vomit now.
@ 5:39
ReplyDeleteThink about the ramifications in defining a fetus as a person. How would you handle birth control, birth control failure, in vitro fertilization, miscarriages, stillbirth or incidents of rape?
I am curious to hear your thoughts.
These are good questions from byte. These are the real questions that need debating.
ReplyDeleteToo often all we get is rhetoric and posturing by both sides, and little real dialogue.
We used to run obituaries for miscarriages and stillborn babies, even at the Traveler.
Some states, you can be charged with two counts of murder if you kill a pregnant woman.
Its very complex
If both sides would hash out these questions, the problem could be solved.
Seems to me there could be some compromises on both sides.
Not holding my breath though.
Good question Byte! Would you favor mandatory sterilization if a society can't control its people?
ReplyDeleteIt sure would solve alot of problems!
- Less burden on health care system
- No need to abort
- Improve the genetic pool by eliminating weak
links.
- Reduce the population
- More opportunity for exta marital affairs
or even reduce or eliminate the need for
marriage/family.
And probably the best one of all:
I think you can pretty much eliminate the need for any personal responsibility.
Mandatory sterilization for those who continually live off the welfare system by having a pack of kids.
ReplyDeleteResponsibility could start with parents not turning a blind eye towards sexually active teens and putting them on contraceptives. if they can't afford to go to a clinic, the health dept is a good source. The pill rarely fails if it is taken right.
If a doc was to tell my mother i would be deformed and an iq of 5, i would have rather not been born. Personal choice. Now rape is a gray area in my book. I think a victim should receive counseling to help decide if they could emotionally handle it.
By the way JJ, some women still don't know they are pregnant at 5 weeks. I know some that didn't know until they were 4-5 months pregnant.
The question of the pregnant lady being shot and the baby killed too, what kind of question is that? Think hard here. She was not given the choice of her baby dying. She did not give that person permission to shoot her and her baby! Choice is the keyword here.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteChoice is the keyword here.
ReplyDelete>>
Ok, why does the baby not get a choice?
Why is one person's choice legitimate and not anothers.
I think it is a sad commentary on our culture when freedom of choice outweighs the right of another person to live.
When does a person gain right of choice?
and why?
Im not saying I have the answers to those questions.
I just think these are the questions our culture needs to answer, and I don't see either side willing to step up to the plate.
ByteDaily said:
ReplyDelete"Think about the ramifications in defining a fetus as a person. How would you handle birth control, birth control failure, in vitro fertilization, miscarriages, stillbirth or incidents of rape?
I am curious to hear your thoughts."
__________________________________________
I am not the person this was meant for, but here is my response anyway. Whether you like it, or whether you don't... that don't confront me none. Long as I get my rent by Friday.
My question is, how do you NOT define a fetus as a person? Will it grow into a living, breathing, baby if it's allowed to? Yes. Life has already begun to form once conception has occurred and the fetus has attached to the uterus and bagan to grow. If left to it's own devices, would it not grow and be born, and go on to have a normal life? I think even you would have to agree with that.
A miscarriage is a natural occurrence, and cannot be compared to abortion in even the most evil of minds. If the body miscarries, it usually means that something is wrong. Miscarriages are devestating to the woman carrying a child which they have already decided to love and care for their entire life. Unlike the mother of an aborted child. Stillbirth also fall into this category.
Invitro fertilization does sometimes leave fertilized embryos frozen in a lab. Embryos that were not injected because of Doctor limitations on the number of babies which would better survive the pregnancy. After a successful pregnancy, the couple must then decide if they wish the fertilized embryos to be frozen for future use, donated to science, or destroyed. My opinion is that without inplantation and attachment, these embryos are not yet human life. My reasoning is that if they are left in that environment, there is no growth. The same cannot be said for a baby in the womb.
Birth control is just that.. it keeps you from becoming pregnant. No harm in that. I wish more people practiced it instead of having abortions to rid themselves of unwanted children.
Birth control failure? Congratulations.. your'e pregnant! Don't play if you can't face the chance that you will have to pay. If you don't want to keep your bundle of joy, there are people out there who do. Put it up for adoption.
I am of the opinion that many people like yourself have chosen to tell themselves that babies in the womb are not really human beings until they breath air. They do IMO this because then they can live with the idea of killing them. It is so important to some that the mother has a CHOICE, that you can't see that that choice is choosing to murder your child. Where is the father's choice? Where is the baby's choice? The mother's choice should have been choosing whether to have unprotected sex during ovulation. Her carelessness should not be an excuse to murder a child.
Rape, incest, mental and physical deformity? I can see abortion being a viable option in those cases, although it should still be a difficult decision. But to kill your child simply because it is an inconvenience is intolerable, and it should stop. Take responsibility for your actions. Your future baby has no fault in your bad decision making, and he or she should not have to die because of it.
ABORTION STATISTICS
ReplyDeleteUNITED STATES
Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700
Who's having abortions (age)?
52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%.
Who's having abortions (race)?
While white women obtain 60% of all abortions, their abortion rate is well below that of minority women. Black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are roughly 2 times as likely.
Who's having abortions (marital status)?
64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married women; Married women account for 18.4% of all abortions and divorced women obtain 9.4%.
Who's having abortions (religion)?
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".
Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.
WHY WOMEN HAVE ABORTIONS
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).
At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.
Likelihood of abortion:
An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.
Abortion coverage:
48% of all abortion facilities provide services after the 12th week of pregnancy. 9 in 10 managed care plans routinely cover abortion or provide limited coverage. About 14% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds, virtually all of which are state funds. 16 states (CA, CT, HI, ED, IL, MA , MD, MD, MN, MT, NJ, NM, NY, OR, VT, WA and WV) pay for abortions for some poor women.
There is no clear answer on this topic and never will be. Abortion is not just the babies rights, it is also a womens rights issue. Any of the following things I say is not necessarily all my (personal)opinion.
ReplyDeleteI do stongly believe in the right to abortion in the early weeks, only extremely good reasons to terminate any later such as my previous example of the deformity and low iq. If it is the mother in danger and not the baby, well that doesn't fly with me. 99.9% of mothers with babies already born would die for their child. I know i would, so why not carry to term and die during labor?!
For instilling values and morals in our children? You can teach them right and wrong all the day long, set curfews and still they can be led astray. Thats why parents should wake up! They need to talk to their teens and by god, if they are sexually active, make sure they are protected. Unfortunately, whether or not we like it, alot of the responsibility falls on the girls shoulder for contraceptives. Don't give me the rubber aurgument, cause we know the(a few) young guys say they can't feel anything. :) Its gotta start somewhere and the first place I would start is slowing teen pregnancy.
So, if we do away with abortion, then what do we do with the babies. Eventually the country will be seriously overpopulated. Adoption is hard enough and eventually there will not be enough people to adopt. I have visions of babies laying in their beds in state run homes, because their is not enough workers taking care of them, other then feeding and changing diapers. Doesn't seem like a very good way to live to me. I've heard people b**** and moan bout other countries limiting the amount of children people could have. Maybe thats a better solution then abortion. Oh right, thats just another freedom taken away.
To the number cruncher, have you crunched about how doing away with abortion will affect our population eventually, how bout welfare stats?
ReplyDelete^ yeah, Answer that one crunchy.
ReplyDeleteThere is no clear answer on this topic and never will be
ReplyDeleteI agree with that.
Im going to tick off both sides here.
I really think that the major problem is that both sides want to have it all their way.
There is too much of a "all or nothing" mentality.
Why must it be ONLY either-or.
It seems that the only choices we have are complete ban on abortion or absolutely no controls at all.
That, to me, is the real problem.
Why can't both sides compromise and come up with a reasonable solution that we all can live with?
"To the number cruncher, have you crunched about how doing away with abortion will affect our population eventually, how bout welfare stats?"
ReplyDeleteSo now it's about overpopulation, and not a woman's right to choose? Give me a break. You people change the argument whenever you're shown to be wrong.
Okay, I'll play along...
So murder is your answer to overpopulation? Then why babies? Why not adults who have reached the age of.. oh, I don't know, 60? 55? Have you ever seen the movie "Logan's Run"?
Besides, we have a ways to go before we are in danger of overpopulation. Look how many people live in China and Japan, and how much land they have to live on. As far as welfare, more people equals more people working, which equals more money being put into social programs to cover the extra people. Duh.
Besides, Obama can just borrow more money from our grandchildren if there isn't enough to go around.
Now what argument are you going to use?
^ yeah, Answer that one crunchy.
ReplyDeleteLOL! I asked for that one!!!
I just simply asked you to see if you could figure that out, so excuse me! I'm not a good number person. I also recall saying not everything I threw out in my post was necessarily my personal opinion.
ReplyDeletePeople are bitching about abortions, welfare, etc. We aren't living in yesteryear, too many people have lost there values along the way and things are only getting worse. Uhmm...yeah, china had to start putting restrictions on population. Yeah I look so forward to the day, when we are living in groups of 4 or 5 families in one house. Really cool way to live with my neighbors breathing down my neck. The problem is, is that people are thinking of the here and now and not future generations to come. And yeah, that'll be some of your blood. Go ahead, ban abortion. Bout 50 years, it'll be a whole different way of life. Where you gonna put crops. Where are these jobs you are talking about since they always moving overseas. We can just continue sticking our heads in the sand or start making plans now.
I'm with JJ's theory and always have been for a long time. There is no clear answer, but I'm figuring the day when abortion laws could be overturned. Hey i got it, we could stick another bush into the white house and kill off everyone with war. Oh right, more money spent. Whatever!!!
JJ. There can be no compromise. This issue is too black and white, I don't see no grey area.
You think the US will overpopulate to the point that there will be no place to plant crops?
ReplyDeleteNo offense, but I can't make you see reason, so I give up.
One birth every 7 seconds and one death every 11 seconds. Birth rate exceeds the death rate.
ReplyDelete@ 9:11
ReplyDeleteThe first fallacy in your argument is that you are attempting to define when life begins. Many in the anti-choice movement would disagree with your definition as do most pro-choice advocates.
The second fallacy is you can not be both anti-choice and pro-choice in cases of rape or incest. If you truly believe that an unborn fetus is an individual then why would the circumstances of it's conception bear consequences of its future well being? If you believe a woman should be left to make that decision then you are pro-choice, if not you are anti-choice. Bottom line.
Thirdly, you entirely missed my point. I am asking people, especially women, to consider the ramifications of defining a fetus as person. This would affect ALL pregnant women, not just those who are pro-choice.
If an unborn fetus was defined as a person:
Would the state investigate all miscarriages and stillborn babies for acts of negligence or child endangerment? Homicide? Abuse? Would we incarcerate women for poor eating habits, not having proper access to health care or those in abusive relationships? Who then decides what course of care is best for your unborn baby?
If a fetus is a child and the mother and father divorce - can the father gain custody of the child? Does the father have to pay child support? Could a woman legally be held accountable for kidnapping her child if she crossed state lines or left the country without a courts consent? For that matter, can an unborn person obtain a passport or a social security card? Could we add unborn fetuses to life insurance policies, health care policies and claim them as tax deductions?
I am pro-choice because I think women are intelligent enough to know what decisions should be made about their body.
"The second fallacy is you can not be both anti-choice and pro-choice in cases of rape or incest. If you truly believe that an unborn fetus is an individual then why would the circumstances of it's conception bear consequences of its future well being? If you believe a woman should be left to make that decision then you are pro-choice, if not you are anti-choice. Bottom line"
ReplyDeleteAre you telling me what I can and cannot believe? I can believe any way I choose (there's that word you love so much.. did it make you tingle?) I make exceptions to pro life, as I think the law should, in the instances of rape/incest, or deformities/quality of life issues.
The rest of your arguments are just so dumb they don't even deserve a serious answer. Kidnapping for taking her pregnant belly across state lines? lol You can't possibly have typed that with a straight face.
Come back when you have a good argument to justify the fact that you condone the murder of innocent children.
"The first fallacy in your argument is that you are attempting to define when life begins. Many in the anti-choice movement would disagree with your definition as do most pro-choice advocates."
ReplyDeletePro choice groups believe that life begins at conception. I am willing to add the caveat of becoming implanted in the uterus.
"I am pro-choice because I think women are intelligent enough to know what decisions should be made about their body."
ReplyDeleteYou don't get it. We don't give two rat's vaginas WHAT women do with THEIR bodies!!! It's the little innocent body inside of them that we care about. How can one human decide that it's okay for another to die simply because their existence will inconvenience them??? JESUS CHRIST, wake up!
@ 7:55
ReplyDeleteYou stated that "without inplantation (sic) and attachment, these embryos are not yet human life". If a pregnancy ends after implantation but before birth - why would that death NOT be investigated?
Here are some miscarriage statistics from baby-parenting.com:
The risk of miscarriage decreases as pregnancy progresses. It is possible that as many as 50% of pregnancies miscarry before implantation in the womb occurs. Early after implantation, pregnancy loss rate is about 30% (ie this is still before a pregnancy is clinically recognised). After a pregnancy may be clinically recognised (between days 35-50), about 25% will end in miscarriage. The risk of miscarriage decreases dramatically after the 8th week as the weeks go by.
Using your definition of when life begins there is between 25-30% of a pregnancy ending in miscarriage. Those unborn persons have died suddenly. If a one year old died suddenly would there not be some sort of investigation? If a woman contributed to the miscarriage could she be prosecuted?
I know you think I am trying to be jerk but I am actually being very serious when I ask these questions.
I do not think it is far fetched to assume if a fetus has rights, a father then will also receive rights. My second group of questions applied to those in custody battles. It happens all the time with actual children, why not a fetus?
"If a pregnancy ends after implantation but before birth - why would that death NOT be investigated?"
ReplyDeleteYou can't honestly be asking these things seriously, can you?? Okay, I'll play along. A miscarriage would not be investigated as a homicide for the same reason the death of an old person who has been sick is not investigated as a homicide.. It's a natural occurrence. There is a huge difference between abortion and miscarriage. Surely, even you can understand that.
I think you are just asking dumb questions to get a rise out of people. But if that is your intent, you should stop, because it is making you look extremely dumb.
Use your head. The court is not going to order visitation rights for a baby in the womb, or order that it gets to spend one holiday with the mother and the next with the father. Give people some credit. In many states, as we speak, a person can be charged with two counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman. THAT is the sort of law that affects a fetus in the womb. If abortion were outlawed in cases of convenience, which is an astounding 93% of the time, then you may have people trying to get illegal abortions, and those people could be prosecuted accordingly.
Just so everyone here knows what Tiller was doing on a daily basis, here is a description.
ReplyDeleteLate Term Abortion – The procedures
There are three general procedures of late-term abortions and partial birth abortions. The first and most popular is called D&E (Dilation and evacuation). Once the cervix is dilated, the fetus is removed by inserting forceps into the uterus. The Fetus is then separated into pieces. These “pieces” of your baby will be removed one at a time. Vacuum aspiration is then used to ensure no tissue remains in the uterus.
The second procedure is early induction of labor. This is very painful and intense for the woman and is rarely used as an abortion procedure.
The third procedure is called Intact D&X surgery. This procedure includes a 2-3 day process to gradually dilate the cervix using sticks of seaweed which absorb fluid and swell. Once this process is finished, the doctor uses forceps and grasps the baby’s leg to turn it to breech position. The baby is then pulled out of the birth canal, leaving the head inside the canal. An incision is then made at the base of the baby’s skull and the brain tissue is removed, causing the skull to collapse. The entire baby is then removed.
Also remember that these procedures were done during the third trimester, when most healthy babies could survive outside the womb. Then also consider that Tiller was using the excuse of the mother being stressed or depressed in order to carry out these abortions.
ReplyDeleteIf it doesn't make you sick to imagine that, then you are not human.
Well you're right and most of us here don't approve of late term abortion, with very few exceptions. That still doesn't give anyone the right to kill Dr. Tiller. Isn't that sinking down to low standards?
ReplyDeleteNo one has defended killing the doctor.
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm not saying you are, but there has been a few questionable comments on here that makes me wonder.
ReplyDelete